Nolan Martin :
Hello and welcome to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. I’m Nolan Martin and with me as always, Aram Donigian. Aram, want to kick it off today?
Aram Dongian:
I will. Nolan, today we’re joined by Caitlin Meredith, a mediator, trainer, and conflict coach who works with individuals, organizations, and families, navigating transitions and conflict.
After working with Doctors Without Borders in war zones in Sub-Saharan Africa for 13 years, Caitlin consulted in the criminal justice system and taught journalism classes in county jails. In addition to a private practice, Caitlin now volunteers her time as a mediator for community in court-based mediation programs in Colorado and California. She is a conflict skills trainer with the center for understanding and conflict based in Santa Rosa, California and teaches core mediation, negotiation, and difficult conversations classes at the Monterey College of Law.
Caitlin co-hosts the podcast Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where she and her investment advisor, friend breakdown financial vocabulary and investing strategy so even normal people can understand it. I know it sounds boring, but it’s actually pretty funny. In all her endeavors, Caitlin finds honest, open, and patient communication to be the key ingredient for creating meaningful connections in our lives. Also, humor. Caitlin, thank you for joining us today.
Caitlin Meredith:
Thank you. I’m excited to talk to you guys.
AD:
We’re excited to have you. Now, on your website, as well as in your bio, you share the following: My work in African war zones, kindergarten classrooms, maximum-security prisons, innocence projects, Texas courtrooms as well as at my own kitchen table with my little human affirms the commonality of humanity’s trials and triumphs. Wow. That sounds so powerful. What are these commonalities that you’ve seen?
Navigating Unfamiliar Terrain With Curiosity & Empathy [02:36]
CM:
I should start with me, obviously which is, my commonality is that, I’m an outsider in all of these places. So I, the list of what I don’t know coming into any of those arenas, including with my own child, is like very long. So I, that’s what draws me in. I want to get to the center of it and understand it. And then through asking questions, I’m assuming it’s going to be something so exotic I can’t relate to. I have no idea what that experience must be. Being a prisoner, being a refugee, being having to walk two miles to get a kid vaccinated or, to be a third grader.
And then through being really curious and talking, I find that almost everything that comes out of someone’s mouth, perhaps isn’t the experience I’ve had but that I can feel it inside and I can relate it to some experience I’ve had no matter how different the context. So I think that I keep looking for some exotic species and all I find are human beings that are just like me if I had a bunch of different circumstances.
NM:
Yeah, so that’s a pretty amazing background and perspective. Did you always see yourself doing this sort of work? What’s the backstory that brought you to what you do today?
CM:
Oh, this is a long story. Okay.
AD:
We’ve got time. We’ve got time. Okay.
Exploring Human Stories In Conflict Zones & Courts [04:10]
CM:
So as I said, I was always curious. From very little, I’d see news stories about refugee camps or about something on the other side of the world and just wonder, what must that be like?
Sort of the further away and the more remote from my own experience. The more curious I was and then I, the first sort of extreme example of that was working for Doctors Without Borders and then going from that curiosity to be in the thick of refugee camps and conflict zones where there was, to be in the center of it and to be finding out where I was the whole time. And through life’s progression, the next sort of stop along there was in the Texas criminal justice system. And there was again what is it like to be in a prison? What is it like to be there and get to feel like I’m in the center of it just asking questions?
And what I started to realize after a bunch of criminal trials is I’m always downstream from the conflict. Like it happened or it’s happening. It’s blown up and something really bad happened or something bad keeps on happening. But I’m like late to this party and I started to really get curious about what happens in the beginning and what are choices that could be made and what kind of human to human opportunities might I have to be on the other side of this before the big thing happens.
And clearly a war zone is a little bit too much for me, Caitlin, to take on and I wasn’t interested in policy discussion. That’s just not my strong suit. Mine was talking to mamas, talking to the people that were on the ground and figuring out what motivates them what’s important to them And so when I started learning more about what mediation was, I thought I could be in a room with two people that are having a problem and I could talk to them and I could help bring out their best and bring out their, the way that they make decisions for themselves.
That would be really nice. To be upstream from all this and have not like this grandiose idea of influence, but be involved at that side of the process rather than in the cleanup or making the best of it after or during.
AD:
That’s such an interesting framing. I’m not sure that’s something I’ve heard before in terms of recognizing that so often we’re downstream of that impact moment, right? That the conflict moment and trying to figure out how to move yourself further upstream. I love that framing. You mentioned the word curiosity that you’re just curious. You actually on your website, you call that your superpower, your insatiable curiosity. I love it. You also use to describe yourself expert listener, problem solver, and advocate.
Why’d you choose these characteristics to describe yourself, especially with regard to this role as mediator trainer coach?
Channeling Curiosity: From Personal Fascination To Professional Exploration [07:10]
CM:
I think my intense, perhaps at times inappropriate curiosity, was a liability for a long time. And now I keep finding things that are a good cover for it. Journalism was an amazing cover for being like a little too curious about how other people think and live.
AD:
Yeah.
CM:
So really this is just like lily pads to justify my curiosity. I’m like working backwards from my curiosity. I don’t know what bloomed up inside. I came from the most stable, like idyllic Northern California existence. And I think just seeing things that were different. And having the stability, the anchor of always being able to come home to this place was the biggest privilege of all.
I could go to Darfur and then have a safe place to come back to that was always there as my anchor. So I see it as part of privilege too, to get to the very edge of my curiosity. I’ve been able to do that, but I innately, I can’t tell you. I can’t tell you why. I think everybody is. I just talk about it more maybe, I don’t know.
AD:
Is it possible to, would it be possible to do the type of work that you’re doing without those characteristics? Listening. Problem solving, curiosity, strong advocacy for others. Is it possible to do that work without those qualities?
Building Trust & Connection In Unfamiliar Territories [08:38]
CM:
It’s hard. I have to reverse engineer the question because of course it’s, as I said, it’s like my cover to do that work. So like I would be doing it whether someone was paying me or not. But what I have noticed is that It can’t just be the curiosity because A, that’s rude. B, I’m often, as I said, I’m the outsider. I want to build a feeling of connection too. And so there’s something about being that outsider coming in. And I’m thinking about the range of experiences and I’ve already touched on them, but like sitting down in Congo with a mom to ask her what she does when her two year old gets sick, how she knows the kid is sick.
I can’t just walk into a village and be like, Hey, you, what, tell me all these things. There’s trust building and relationship building that goes into that has enriched my life so much to feel a connection, to feel like, to laugh with somebody from that’s in it from a totally different life than I am. That charges me up. So this is all, I just want to make sure it doesn’t sound like I’m being like altruistic. Like I’m here, the peacemaker coming in. This feeds me like some deep, whether it’s like my narcissism, whether who knows what it is, but there’s some way that it deeply feeds me and the fact that I could be able to do that and then obviously walk into a prison, which is something we would more likely think oh, you know, one, be vigilant, watch out.
But to want to be trusted in a place like that and to figure out It’s not just curiosity, but there’s a little bit of a vulnerability that gets displayed there to be an outsider and to recruit someone. Hey, I’m trying to figure out this place. Could you help be my guide? And not in a cynical way, but in a truly, like, this would be a generosity that you could offer to me and I would really appreciate it.
NM:
You conduct workshops on how to have difficult conversations during times of high tension and have conducted these with a wide range of organizations that include human resource departments, law firms, support staff, animal control officers, homeless shelter workers, and many others. Are there certain aspects, certain key aspects to having tough conversations? What are somewhat universal and what are those principles you have, you train?
Adapting Communication Strategies Across Diverse Professional Landscapes [11:10]
CM:
Something I love, I’ll answer your question, but one of the things that I love about those workshops is everyone’s constraints are so different. And when you were just reading that list, I realized I was waiting for you to say, I know I’m the one who wrote the list. So it’s a little bit silly for me to think you would know this other one. Yeah, but the parking enforcement team for the city of Boulder. And I’m like giving them my whole like you really want to, ask people questions, all this. And one of the guys raises his hand. He’s like, lady, I’m standing in the middle of a street with the city bus coming down at 40 miles per hour.
There is no time for like attentive listening and making someone feel understood. And I was like, point taken. Okay. Let’s reframe this whole thing. Walk me through where you’re having these difficult conversations. And it doesn’t mean that the essential elements aren’t there. Listening, focusing, like turning everything else on your mind, out of your mind, so that you can truly understand where someone is coming from so that you can respond and de-escalate.
But if you have, if you’re the call center person and you have exactly one minute to talk to them, or you’re standing in the middle of the street, telling someone they’re getting a parking ticket. While a bus is coming at you versus an HR person who can have a meeting with a closed door where there’s privacy, there’s so many different places people have to have difficult conversations.
So the focus for me is always like. How am I doing? How are you the person having the conversation? So I really don’t like saying self care. It has so much baggage. And I always think of like a spa with a massage and some like very bougie, like self care thing. But really what I’m talking about is ooh, what is going on in my what’s the adrenaline situation going on right now?
How can I make sure I don’t walk out of this and need tons of recovery time. What can I start to do to take care of myself right now? So there’s that piece of it. There’s the, so can I tell you guys the acronym that I teach them? That’s like a little cringy, but it’s the one that I came up with that kind of works for me is SUP. And I will tell you, I came from like a surfing town in Northern California. So SUP it’s both the vibe and what it stands for. So the S is slow down. The U is understand. And then the P is problem solve, but it has to go in that order. So you have to slow down. Then you can try to understand, and only then do you try to problem solve.
And I find that for like really like over-stimulated helpers like me, I want to go to problem solving right away when I’m amped up, when I understand like, a 16th of the surface level, that’s when I’m like really charged to problem solve. So this is really about what I have to try to do. When the parking guy says I can’t do what you’re telling me to do.
I’m like, okay, slow down, understand what he’s saying. And then I can work together with him to problem solve how to use the tools that I’m introducing. It is a light, like a daily struggle for me to do those three steps. But I find that when I focus on them, I can then. Help someone else develop their own slow down, understand and then problem solve, whatever their constraints are.
AD:
Yeah, I think that’s true for so many of us I mean, especially if you’re wired to want to be helpful if you are just, you know, you talked about curiosity and creativity as maybe a problem solving tool, it’s easy to jump straight to problem solving and and so I find myself sometimes when I’m listening, thinking about how I’m going to respond rather than really shutting that off and listening to the other person. Do you find that as well? And is that something you work with clients on?
Turning Off The Problem-Solver To Harness Collective Wisdom [15:15]
CM:
It’s so hard. I have so many good ideas. I have so many good solutions for you, even after you’re telling me that. I’m going to tell him how to do this and this is what I do. And I’m like, oh, I’m doing exactly the thing that you’re just explaining to me. That is your challenge. So first I identify, I feel like there’s a toggle switch in my brain that I have to like, physically feel like I’m doing something different to shut all that down. And, you know, I always feel like such a schoolmarm, that’s such an outdated, like a crossing guard, I don’t know.
So with a visor and a clipboard when I’m like, these are the things you don’t do when you’re listening. You’re not problem solving. You’re not saying oh, that happened to me, or you should do this, or why did, shut it all down. And that’s threatening to me until I realized oh, that’s actually super relaxing. Like I don’t have to multitask. I don’t have to feel the burden of someone else’s problem on me when they’re not asking me to take on that burden. And if everything is a problem you’re going to take on because you’re so brilliant to solve, like you’ve used 40% of your charge by 11 AM.
So, can I say that’s part one to my answer? And I feel like I’m getting away from your question, but this other brilliant thing I really want to share. The other part is I realized the assumption and as an aid worker, that’s built into it is that I will be the one who can solve it. I will be the one who actually is the adult in the room. And that’s feels great for a little while, look how awesome I am and thank God, here I am in charge of my life and but actually collaborating with other people with their skills and experience is amazing because I want to live in a world where there’s other capable people with great ideas. And that complement mine that are completely different than mine.
So what would the world look like if I really did have all the best answers all the time I would miss out on a lot. So I also there’s some like worldview thing that i’m toggling in it, too. That’s like oh, this is exciting. I’m going to get to hear someone else’s ideas. And if I can be here to create that like zone of creativity for them and perhaps a little de-escalation so that they can get into their best thinking spot and they have a time and a space to do that. Look at the benefit I’ll get. Like, that’s huge.
AD:
I think it also gets to what I hear you saying is success isn’t just having come up with a solution. It’s actually, are we able to implement it and see results from this? The best solution probably just isn’t in my own head, it involves collaborating with the other person. That’s kind of that worldview piece. And then that connection that you were talking about earlier that we’re going to make, that’s going to help us execute because even when we roll out to do something, it’s unlikely to be a 100%. We’re going to have to continue to iterate.
The Ongoing Journey Of Rupture & Repair In Communication [18:33]
CM:
Yeah. I mean, I tell people in my mediations and when I’m teaching people about having difficult conversations on their own, that I think of every conflict as a practice for the next. And essentially every conversation that’s difficult is a practice for our next one. And so there’s no one and done, get this tool. We are, this is messy. Human interactions are messy. And I also talk a lot. This is self preservation speaking here about rupture and repair. You’re gonna mess up again and again and then using a tool trying it again forgetting it, using it in the wrong order.
All of that is part of repair. And actually, the more you’re engaged in it, even if you’re doing it poorly, but with good intent, and the other person shows you care, that is actually the whole point of it. It’s not, I’m being too vague here, but in a difficult conversation, it’s not acing it. It’s trying it and having the other person see how much you care to keep trying. And that is hard to convey in a two-hour workshop because people want to come away with I have this tool, and this tool, which I give them. But I also really want to highlight the fact that the tools can only take you like you have to be willing to be super uncomfortable and awkward and mess up and then try again.
AD:
Yeah, that’s just not easy I love that every conflict every conversation is practice for the next. Being okay with the messiness of this stuff. In addition to difficult conversations you teach a lot of other things you teach sessions ranging from increasing awareness around bias and judgments. I think there’s so much power in that given where we sit in 2024, you talk about turning negotiations into collaborations, giving and receiving feedback.
We know how critical that is to leader development and growth as we sit here and many more. All right. So here’s the very generous question to you. Do you have a favorite topic to train clients on what is it? Why is it, or is it hard? Cause they’re all your children and you love them all equally.
Equipping Professionals With The Skills To Navigate Workplace Challenges [20:51]
CM:
No, there’s certain ones that sort of fit into a corporate HR scheme that just are like, that is, that’s not my, that’s not my environment, my biosphere of choice. So I would say I really want people who are in those hierarchical situations to have tools and to feel like their humanity can be expressed even in that system.
But it’s and so for that piece, I like it. I’m trying to think you’re a baby. I just designed with my colleague, Fiona Hall, who is also a mediation colleague. We designed this 10 class course for the law school about how to have difficult conversations. And that was so fun. So I’m not going to pick a favorite among those, but just the idea that preparing legal professionals, not for the trial, not for the legal arguing before a judge, like none of the other stuff that everybody thinks like, that’s what lawyers do.
But all of the other stuff, the human talking to an office manager, delivering bad news to a client having an issue with a colleague’s refrigerator use in the break room. Like all of these things that turn into much bigger problems and avoidance. And one of the things that I talk about is these, the study that got done by a coaching Institute about how many people, the lengths to which we’re willing to go to avoid a difficult conversation and, anywhere from like avoiding the person for a year talking to them, but like avoiding a topic or quitting.
And so that idea that people have practiced to have the words come out of their mouth, to start a difficult conversation, if I had to choose any of like, a baby, it’s that it’s just to be able to say hey, something’s on my mind. Could we talk about it and that they have had some internal confidence building that they would be able to carry out that conversation, that’s that would be.
AD:
Practice here for a second. I need to talk to Nolan, who is my partner in crime. This is a what if, this isn’t real. But I had talked to Nolan who’s my partner in crime here on the podcast, about a struggle we’re facing. We’re trying to update the website. And he’s really, I’m jazzed about some of the changes we’re making and he’s got some concerns. How do I even open that because I’m concerned about offending him. I know how much work he’s put into this but how do I get him on board with some of the excitement I’m feeling and he’s got some reservations.
The 321 Approach: A Structured Method For Starting Difficult Conversations [23:41]
CM:
I’m so glad you asked. Let’s take you through a 321 tool. Okay, this is one of my favorites for a conversation starter like this. So it’s 321. The 3 is the third person perspective, the balcony that they talk about, you know, a narrator, the video recording. And so you could start with hey, Nolan. It’s clear we’re having some disagreements about how this website rollout is going to go. You need to choose carefully that it’s a sentence that both of you would agree about. A framing that’s so elevated that there, of course there’s no blame in it, of course there’s no attribution because you did this or whatever, but just like what is a starter that both people would be totally on board about?
This is our frame. Then you go to 2. That’s the second person. Now you, Aram, if you’re starting it, Nolan is the second person. And so you then go with some, I would call it empathetic conjecture. I think for you, Nolan, I’m just going to populate your brain with some opinions, I could happen. You really want it to be as good as it can be. And even if it takes six months longer than we initially thought that’s really important to you. Am I getting that right? So you try to have an really imagine what’s important to them, and reflect it to them and then get confirmation. Am I getting that right? Is there a part that I’m missing about your perspective about this?
Like the thumbnail version. And once Nolan’s been able to say yeah, this is like our brand. This is how I want to show up in the world. I hate really messy websites or ones where you can tell they just threw it together, whatever his perspective is and I had that experience once before and I regretted it ever since or I know once we do it. We’ll never go back to it, whatever all of his good reasons are for being stubborn about this like, according to you.
And once you go through his, the 2, you can then go to the 1, which is the first person perspective, your own and say, I wonder if I could tell you what my experience is right now about this and what’s important to me. This isn’t the whole conversation, but it’s a starter. So you have a structure to remind you that if I come in guns blazing, like, why are you so slow about all these things? And you never want to grow and you don’t get how the market works and whatever. Nolan, how would you feel just in this, imagine this. Terrible and maybe a little defensive, like maybe a little bit like this is an ambush.
This is actually not like an invitation to collaborate or problem solve. So one of the things I thought I read in a book and then I was always trying to find where I got the quote and then I googled it and it’s everywhere. So I don’t know who originally said it, but when you’re furious, you can’t be curious. And so that’s this litmus test for, am I ready to have a 321? Could I really, would Nolan buy it that I’m truly curious about what his perspective is yet or not?
And if I’m not there, I can’t start this conversation. You could say, hey, I’d really like to talk about this website issue. Could we set a meeting for next week? And then you have time to prepare for it. But if you’re still your blood is boiling, that’s not, no matter what tool I give you, it’s not a time where you can move into problem solving together is my guess.
NM:
I love the framing around, having to basically be in the right mindset before you’re able to have those difficult conversations. I think it’s important.
Hey everyone, Nolan here. I have to jump in and end today’s podcast for part A of this show. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the NEGOTIATEx podcast if you haven’t already, and also join us next week for part B of this awesome interview.
