NegotiateX Podcast | with Melissa Fortunato

HOSTED BY: NOLAN MARTIN & ARAM DONIGIAN

The Importance Of Practice And Reflection In Negotiation

Active listening is essential for effective negotiation. It involves a deep understanding of the other party’s point of view. This skill requires intense concentration and can be mentally demanding.
Negotiations within long-term personal relationships, like those with family members, are often more challenging due to pre-existing perceptions and emotional stakes, obstructing genuine understanding.
In scenarios where the other party is unresponsive, exploring alternative communication methods, such as using intermediaries or leveraging existing networks, is useful to facilitate engagement.
The formulation of questions is crucial in negotiations; open-ended questions that do not limit possible responses can elicit more informative and revealing answers, aiding deeper understanding.
It’s important to continuously adapt negotiation tactics based on the context and relationship dynamics to maintain effectiveness across different situations, from intense crisis negotiations to more controlled business discussions.

Table Of Content

Executive Summary:
Transcript:

Executive Summary:

Hey everyone! Welcome back to the NEGOTIATE^x podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over 23 years of experience.

In Part A, Melissa shared her unique journey from a counselor and social worker to an FBI crisis negotiator, highlighting her background in psychology as a valuable asset in her role.

She also shared insights into the complexities of her work, including a challenging kidnapping negotiation in Afghanistan. Additionally, Melissa highlighted the importance of patience, strategic assessment, and effective communication in successful negotiations.

If you haven’t checked out Part A yet, we strongly recommend you do that first before listening to this one. Now, with that said, let’s jump right in!

The Vital Role Of Active Listening In Negotiation

Firstly, the speakers delve into the topic of active listening, which Melissa highlights as a crucial skill in effective negotiation. She explains that active listening involves truly hearing and understanding the other person, citing Stephen Covey’s principle: “Seek first to understand, before being understood.”

Melissa highlights the difficulty of active listening, mentioning that it requires intense focus and can be mentally exhausting.

She also shares humorous insights from her personal life, comparing negotiations with her teenage daughters to those with the Taliban. She notes the unique challenges posed by long-term relationships like those with family members.

According to her, negotiations within familiar relationships can be tougher because of preconceived notions about what the other person will say, which might hinder true listening and understanding.

She concludes by emphasizing the importance of maintaining perspective and caring for relationships, even when one is urged to prove themselves right in a disagreement.

Strategies For Navigating Silent Negotiations

Nolan and Aram continue their discussion with Melissa, focusing on handling challenging negotiations where the other party is unresponsive.

Melissa shares her experiences with difficult negotiations, including those involving complete silence, describing them as particularly challenging because they leave negotiators without feedback to work with. She contrasts her negotiation scenarios, such as speaking to a barricaded individual for hours with no response, to business settings where different strategies might be employed.

Melissa suggests that when faced with silence in negotiations, one should explore alternative communication avenues, leveraging networks or intermediaries to initiate dialogue. She compares using SWAT team tactics to elicit responses with employing BATNA in business negotiations to prompt engagement from the other side.

Aram reflects on Melissa’s strategies, emphasizing the importance of persistent engagement and creativity in finding solutions. He discusses the concept of reality testing in negotiations, suggesting that understanding and adjusting negotiation strategies based on the context and desired outcomes are crucial.

Melissa agrees, adding that knowing when to step back and reassess whether negotiation should continue can relieve pressure and potentially lead to better outcomes, making parties more likely to engage cooperatively.

Mastering The Art Of Questioning

Moving on, Aram discusses the importance of crafting effective questions in negotiations, prompting Melissa to elaborate on her approach to formulating questions that facilitate understanding and engagement.

The latter admits that asking a good question is challenging and shares her realization about the limitations of overly specific questions. She emphasizes the value of asking open-ended questions that do not constrain the responder to limited choices, allowing for unexpected answers that could provide deeper insights.

Melissa also reflects on how people often infuse their questions with their own biases and agendas, which can shape the direction and outcome of a conversation. She stresses the importance of being non-judgmental and listening attentively to each word used in a conversation, as even slight changes in wording can significantly alter the meaning and impact of a question.

Additionally, Melissa discusses the importance of self-reflection in negotiation, encouraging negotiators to ask themselves critical questions about their goals, responses, and emotional reactions. This practice, she argues, not only enhances one’s emotional intelligence but also fosters a greater capacity for empathy and understanding in negotiations.

It helps negotiators better understand their own motivations and reactions, which in turn can make them more effective and adaptable in various negotiating contexts.

Adapting Crisis Negotiation Skills To Business Consulting And Training

Next, Melissa addresses the differences between high-stress crisis situations she encountered in the FBI and her current role in business consulting and training. She notes that while the contexts differ significantly, there are substantial similarities in the application of negotiation skills across both fields.

She explains that crisis negotiations often revolve around very basic, raw human needs, creating opportunities for deep connection despite the presence of hostility and resistance, such as threats and profanity. This contrasts with business environments, where the emotional dynamics can be less intense and more controlled.

Additionally, Melissa mentions receiving feedback, particularly from men, who find techniques like emotional labeling to be awkward or patronizing. She emphasizes adapting these techniques to suit professional settings better by, for example, associating emotions with situations rather than directly with individuals to make the approach less personal and more palatable.

Nolan draws from his military and FBI background, emphasizing that structured processes focusing on facts, assessments, and recommendations are crucial and advantageous in business environments.

Melissa agrees, highlighting the importance of framing conversations effectively to establish good communication practices. She highlights the importance of adapting negotiation strategies to fit the individual and situation, using structured processes to enhance effective communication, underscoring that no single approach works for all.

How Perceptions Of Success Shape Negotiation Strategies

Subsequently, Aram explores how the perception of success influences negotiation strategies. Melissa emphasizes the critical role of mindset in negotiations. She shares an anecdote from her training days about negotiating with ISIS, illustrating the impact of a negotiator’s mindset on their effectiveness.

Melissa argues that believing in one’s ability to negotiate, even in extreme situations, is crucial. She reflects on her experiences, including a challenging negotiation involving a drug gang, to highlight how personal biases and feelings toward the other party can affect the negotiation process.

Melissa stresses the importance of awareness and control over one’s attitudes during negotiations, as they significantly shape one’s approach and the outcomes.

Melissa On Building Rapport And Understanding In High-Stakes Negotiations

Moving on, Melissa shares insights from her experiences as an undercover agent and how these have shaped her approach to communication and negotiation. She emphasizes the importance of deeply understanding the people one negotiates with by assessing their priorities and interests, which she learned through observing their personal connections and what they care about.

For example, she mentions a criminal who, despite his background, showed genuine love for his son and interest in golf, which were potential areas to build rapport.

Furthermore, Melissa underscores the necessity of not letting personal judgments cloud interactions. It is particularly true in undercover work, where success often depends on establishing genuine connections, even with individuals who have committed serious crimes.

She recalls an operation with a former hitman, noting that if she had focused on his past rather than the present interaction, they wouldn’t have been able to connect as effectively. This ability to remain open and non-judgmental allowed her to successfully engage with him, which was crucial for the operation’s success.

Through these experiences, Melissa learned to adapt her approach to individual values and interests, maintain a professional demeanor, and avoid personal bias, significantly enhancing negotiation and undercover work effectiveness.

Balancing AI Integration And Human Connection

In discussing the evolving landscape of negotiation amid technological and societal changes, Melissa shares her perspective on integrating technology, such as AI, into negotiation processes.

She expresses cautious optimism, recognizing the benefits of technology in preparing and providing information for negotiations but also highlighting the irreplaceable value of human connection in these scenarios.

Additionally, Melissa compares traditional ransom kidnappings with modern ransomware attacks, noting both allow negotiators more time to strategize due to less immediate email or text communication. This, she points out, is a strategic advantage as it allows for more deliberate and thoughtful responses.

Looking ahead, Melissa highlights the importance of collective and proactive approaches to tackling challenges like ransomware. She advocates for collaboration among corporations and government entities to address these issues more effectively rather than handling them in isolation.

By sharing resources, such as decryption keys and information about threat actors, organizations can better prepare and respond to incidents. Thus, it streamlines responses and reduces the emotional and psychological impact on those involved by setting realistic expectations based on past experiences and established patterns.

Melissa stresses the importance of learning from each incident to build a knowledge base that enhances prediction, mitigation, and negotiation strategies in future crises.

The Importance Of Deep Learning And Consistent Practice

In the concluding segment of the podcast, Melissa reflects on the essence of negotiation, emphasizing the importance of deep, comprehensive learning over seeking quick fixes.

She critiques the common desire for immediate, easy solutions to complex negotiation problems and stresses the value of truly understanding and internalizing negotiation principles at a fundamental level. Melissa argues that focusing solely on winning or manipulating others with superficial techniques is ineffective and can undermine long-term success and relationships.

Aram echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of deliberate and consistent practice. He and Melissa agree that practicing negotiation skills in various contexts, including low-stakes personal interactions, is crucial. They discuss how regular practice, even in daily interactions with family, can enhance one’s ability to negotiate effectively in high-pressure situations.

Melissa shares personal anecdotes to illustrate how practicing with her children helps her refine her skills, acknowledging that mistakes in these safer environments provide valuable learning opportunities.

Melissa, Aram, and Nolan discuss more on this episode of the NEGOTIATE^x podcast. Write to us at team@negotiatex.com and share your thoughts on this informational podcast episode. Also, if you enjoyed the episode, we’d be thrilled if you could rate us on Apple Podcasts. Your ratings help us grow and improve.

Thank you for your time!

Transcript

Nolan Martin :

Hey everyone! Thanks for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Melissa Fortunato, a negotiation and conflict resolution trainer and consultant and former FBI crisis negotiator.

If you haven’t already checked out part a of the show, be sure to do that first. Let’s jump in the conversation with Melissa.

Aram Donigian:

You’ve mentioned active listening a couple times now. I wanted to go back. What does that look like when it’s done effectively? And have you ever had a situation where active listening actually changed the outcome?

Mastering The Art Of Active Listening: Insights From An FBI Negotiator [01:12]

Melissa Fortunato:

So, active listening, the way it looks and sounds, there’s an amazing quote from Stephen Covey.

I don’t know if you know 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. But he says, Seek first to understand, before being understood. In my experience in life, most people don’t do that. Most people want to be able to tell you how they feel, what they think, and they may never ask you anything of your side.

So active listening really is just that it’s okay. Let me hear what’s going on with you. Tell me everything. And there’s eight specific skills to it. They’re important, but I think the overall takeaway from the eight active listening skills that I was trained on how to communicate as an FBI negotiator, is it just displays that you’re listening.

People really feel it and get it when you emotion label, when you paraphrase, right? When you mirror back the words that they say, it just is a way to display that you truly are listening. I think there’s so many times when people talk, so much happens in your own head that you stop listening. And you start listening more to what you’re saying.

So active listening is just that it’s really active. If you’re doing it, well, it will hurt your head. You will be tired from it because it’s so engaging, but it works. And Aram, I know you have a ton of kids, you probably do this with your children.

AD:

When I’m at my best, I.

MF:

Yeah, same. It’s so hard, right?

AD:

It is hard. Yeah. I was going to ask which is harder, negotiating with your kids or the hostage negotiations, especially when it comes to active listening.

MF:

I tell the joke all the time. I have negotiated with the Taliban and my teenage daughters. And I will tell you, I’ll negotiate with the Taliban all day long. It’s so different, right? Because I think it’s the long term beat down. No, it’s the long term relationship and interaction that makes it harder. They learn you, you learn them. That’s the harder part. But all the skills I use in my hostage negotiation, I absolutely use at home with my children. It was so much easier when they were little, they didn’t totally know what I’m doing.

Many times now, if I try to do anything, I do get from my husband and my children, stop doing your negotiation stuff. I do get that. So I must not be doing it seamlessly enough.

AD:

Well, what I appreciate is so active listening, like the thoughts going on our own head. It’s probably more likely when I am negotiating with my teenage daughters or my spouse, because I’m already feeling it in. Cause I know them.

So I already know what you’re going to say, right, versus when you’re negotiating with the Taliban. You don’t know what they’re going to say. You almost have to be patient. So it’s funny cause it almost made me flip of what we would expect there.

MF:

That is a great point. You just made me think about that differently because I think that is it. We fill it in thinking, I already know what you’re going to say. I already know how you think about this. So it would be harder when you have those relationships. So, at work, right, negotiating amongst your team, recognize when you’re doing that, because maybe you’re wrong.

I always say, you know, when you have a negotiation with your partner or something, if in the moment you’re about to say something, you’re like, Oh, it’s going to be so good. Cause I’m going to stick it to you and tell you you’re wrong. And it’s going to feel so fun. That’s when it should be a red flag that you are off track.

And the importance of just stepping back in that moment and then saying, Okay, Melissa, this is actually your husband who you love and you would like to have a good relationship with. And maybe sticking it to them, as fun as it is. Maybe it’s not the best way to go in this moment. And the larger picture of caring about the relationship or where this is going is more important in that moment than me just feeling really good to prove that I’m right.

NM:

I’ll leave my comments out of this in case my wife ever listens to this one, but she likes to stick it to me, but I think I deserve it most of the time. So it works out. So how do you handle a situation where the other party doesn’t want to talk or isn’t open to negotiating?

Strategies For Effective Communication In Challenging Negotiations [05:18]

MF:

Yeah, that is very challenging, because to me, as a negotiator, you know, as a communicator, words is everything.

AD:

Right, right.

MF:

Right? It’s like air. If you silent treatment me, if you just don’t say anything, oh boy, you’re just almost instantly cutting me off at the knees. So, I would rather you scream and yell and threaten me because I have something to work with. Then it’s completely silence, but I have had two negotiations I’ve been involved in where it was complete silence.

One was, I was not directly involved. I was just on the team and it was a negotiator out in New York and she talked for like six hours to a door and nothing. And then I had my own negotiation with the gentleman I talked to you about. He barricaded his home. We went to arrest him. Fifteen hours, nothing. It is hard, because you are guessing about what you think they’re thinking.

And you’re just trying to throw that out there with no response back. And like all of us, over time, it’s really difficult to maintain that with no response at all. But I have found in both of the situations, They both ended successfully. And it didn’t feel like that at many different times during the six hours or the 15 hours.

I mean, we questioned at times on the six hour one, we questioned, is he even in there? Maybe, you know, did he commit suicide and he’s not even alive anymore? All of these things you are always working through and you just keep trying in different ways. So I say you still can work through to a successful ending, but you know, just understand is there some other way?

And maybe if in a business negotiations, you’re getting silenced, is there another avenue, another way that you can kind of work yourself in there? Is it through your strategic network? Is there someone that could introduce you? Is there someone that could talk on your behalf that maybe is a better avenue in? At least to have you get started with the conversation, if you’re getting silenced or shut out that way.

I said, we use our SWAT team a lot of times to send a message in a different way, sometimes to get you to communicate with us, not everybody has the luxury of a SWAT team behind them. If we would, that’d be great to be better negotiators, but I think just trying to think creatively, I’d love to hear actually from you guys. Cause you’re much more in that arena. Is there a way that you know, in business negotiations, if you’re silenced or shut out, how can you bring out the other person?

From SWAT Teams To Creative Solutions And Reality Testing [07:48]

AD:

What I heard from you was this kind of constant pressure. Maybe pressure’s not the right word. But kind of constant drumbeat of staying engaged, trying some different things. That was the second piece. Trying some different moves. And certainly the idea that, Hey, there is an alternative here. In your case, it’s a SWAT team. What we might refer to as a BATNA. We might have them employ something and just so you know, it could escalate and that’s not what we want to do. We want a peaceful resolution just to be able to hint at that.

And so I think even in our world being able to again, consistent drumbeat of hey, we’re here. We want to listen. We’ve got things we want to ask you. We think this is what you’re concerned about. What are we missing? You mentioned creativity, Melissa, right? The ability to say, Hey, is there a creative solution?

And obviously in business, there’s more creative solutions than the situations you’re faced with, which you are not, I mean, we need you to give yourself up. So I think those are great steps and all the meanwhile saying, hey, and we could walk away and that’s not what our ideal choice to walk away from this.

And we could, and if that’s better for you, for us to walk away and for you to walk away, then maybe we should consider that. So I think it’s kind of reality testing that BATNA sometimes too, that can bring them back to the table.

MF:

I love that point. You’re right on that reality testing of it. Also, what made me think when you were just saying that around, is this, knowing what your goal is, you know, cause maybe you do want to make the sale, the deal, whatever. Maybe you’re not the right fit.

And sometimes people just think I have to get it and I have to make the money and I have to, but maybe you’re not the best fit. It would set you up for failure, which would make your company look bad. And so assessing that and sometimes stepping back and just asking that question of, yeah. Okay, maybe we don’t have to. I think it takes the pressure off sometimes by even considering that as an option for both sides.

You know and then people might be more likely to say, Oh, okay. You’re not trying to force me into a sale so I can relax a little bit. And then they appreciate that. People then tend to work with people they like more, so it can work out for you.

AD:

You know, it seems that part of this kind of engaging people who are trying to disengage is tied to our ability to ask a good question. That isn’t always easy to do. So how do you approach crafting well designed questions, and are there examples that you’ve used successfully when negotiating?

The Key To Effective Communication And Understanding In Negotiations [10:03]

MF:

You are so right that it is hard sometimes to ask a good question. I have found, even for myself, that I struggle with this. Sometimes I want to display that I really have heard what you said, and I’ve understood it all, and I want to ask a question just for clarification, and I end up asking a question that’s qualified, you know? Did you mean this or this? And I have now taken that question, and I’ve almost locked the person into picking two things.

When maybe it was a third thing, and I missed it. And that made me realize I have to learn to ask more open ended, shorter, not general questions, but in some ways a more general question that allows space to be filled with things I hadn’t even considered. I think when people pay attention to the questions they ask or get asked, you realize people put so much of their agenda and perspective into the questions that they ask.

And sometimes the way that you listen, the way that you ask the right questions, is how the story gets told. And I don’t always want to have it be limited by maybe the question that I asked, or the way that I’m listening. And just trying to constantly remind myself to remain open, and have the question be really non judgmental.

So I listen to every word. Because, I’m like you were talking earlier, you said something like, maybe that pressure’s not the best word. That means to me, in your mind, you think through each word that you use in a sentence. Which is great, because sometimes just that slight tweak of a word sends a different message.

And so be smart and think through all the words that you’re adding in, because they do have different connotations. And I think it can make your questions better when you’re conscious of that. One of the other things that I will say is, we talk a lot about, like, coming up with these great questions to ask other people.

What kind of questions are you asking yourself? And I think those can be really important in a negotiation, too. We talked about this before. What is your goal? What am I really trying to accomplish here? That big picture, small picture. What matters? If I’m trying to get my kid to do one thing, but I really care about the relationship. Can I pick and choose how I approach this specific smaller situation to accomplish something in the bigger picture?

Asking yourself questions. Why am I feeling this way? Why am I responding in a certain way? I think can teach you a lot about people and make you a better negotiator because you understand how you felt when someone said something to you, how you felt when you felt pressured, right?

So learning all those things increases your emotional intelligence and will make you have much more openness and grace to other people when they’re doing it back. You can see it differently, like, Oh, I felt that. I know what that is. And then you can talk to that.

NM:

What do you see as the major differences between the high stress crisis situations you handled while in the FBI and situations you work with clients on today?

Applying Crisis Negotiation Skills To Business Challenges [13:05]

MF:

I recognize crisis negotiation is different in business and we do get some pushback from people. You know it’s very different. There are differences. I am amazed now coming out of law enforcement and trying to, you know, utilize my skills in this space of training and consulting. There is so much that’s similar.

I will say the one difference that you asked, Nolan, is, in crisis negotiation, it’s very raw. It is very baseline human needs. So you can really talk to that and seek that. I have found many people in crisis. There is a bit of desperation for connection so you can make it. They do put up a lot of roadblocks.

Don’t get me wrong. There’s a lot of threats and demands and, you know, unfortunately in my job, I very regularly was told the F-word, you know, so it doesn’t seem like you can make those connections. But I loved being able to connect with people at that very raw level that I think you don’t necessarily see in business.

So, a lot of times when I do training and we teach active listening skills, I have had some pushback, typically from men, that say, the emotional labeling is weird. I wouldn’t want anyone to ever do that to me. It feels really patronizing, like you’re talking to a child. And so we’ve worked a lot around like, I get what you’re saying and you have to learn then how to ask it in a different way that doesn’t feel like me just saying, Oh, Nolan, you sound really mad.

We don’t want you to just robotically be doing this. We want you to find a way that it can naturally flow in how you would communicate. So sometimes we say to people instead of, you know, Wow, that would be a really stressful situation. Gosh, that must be overwhelming. You don’t attach it maybe to the person. Maybe it feels better if you attach it to the situation. That for some people, they could absorb that better. But it has the same effect of you recognizing the emotion behind a situation.

NM:

Yeah. I think what I noticed when I transitioned from the army, I spent 12 years in the army. So I had kind of had the same, I don’t know if it’s going to be directly applicable, but what I found is like the processes, the processes you mentioned earlier with facts, assessment, recommendation, like, all of these things are directly applicable in the business environment.

And most businesses don’t have good processes to think by focusing on those things and being able to just help them with the process aspect of things that we were ingrained with in both the military and I’m assuming the FBI, that’s how I’ve noticed being able to have the biggest impact is just bringing those processes, so.

MF:

I love that because I found, even if you just frame a conversation a certain way to start it keeps it within the bounds of we’re going to be good communicators. We’re going to, I’m going to give you time to talk. I’m going to have time to talk. I do care what you think. I would like to tell you my side.

Sometimes just framing things, it sets the stage for how you want it to be. And people always, I think, think in a training, just tell me what to say. But there is not one perfect thing to say as we go back to our assessment, you have to assess that person and figure out what works for them. So it’s just learning, like you said, that process to do it.

AD:

And another piece, and you’ve said this before, cause you mentioned, you know, what was the measure of success. Another piece is assessing what’s the goal here. What’s the desired outcome? And that’s going to drive which skills we use, because I think a lot of the skills that you were discussing are applicable in so many different contexts.

So when you think about measuring success in negotiation, how does your mindset around what is success impact the way that you prepare and then conduct those negotiations?

The Power Of Mindset In Negotiation: Lessons From High-Stakes Scenarios [16:44]

MF:

Yeah, I think mindset is everything. If you work on nothing else, if you work on what is going on in your head, During the time, you can make huge changes.

I reference back to when I went through negotiation training. So brand new, trying to learn, don’t know anything. One of the instructors, she was this amazing negotiator, Zorka. And she said, I’d love to ask you. At the time, you know, we were, ISIS was the big thing where, you know, ISIS was kidnapping American citizens.

And many times, they might call the family, but they weren’t even really asking for anything. They were just, Hey, let me show you this video of us torturing your family member. She asked the question, do you think you could negotiate with someone like that? And as a new negotiator, it was like, woof. Cause all I thought of, I don’t know what I would say.

What do you even say? And, you know, at the time we, many of us were like, I don’t know. Probably not. And she’s like, well, if you think you couldn’t, then you probably shouldn’t be here. I’m like, Oh, ouch. I guess I still have more to learn, right? I will say now as a negotiator, all these years later, I totally understand the point of her question and that she’s right.

If you walk in thinking that you can’t. You won’t. If you walk in thinking about the person a certain way, it will change your approach to them. And so all of those things about how are you showing up can make such a difference. We had one negotiations with a drug gang that had kidnapped a rival drug dealer’s mother.

The son was so challenging. And the team just really disliked him. And that plays into it, and it can make it harder, I think, when you have somebody that you’re dealing with that you just really don’t like. And so you have to be so conscious of, is that a feeling that’s coming up for you?

NM:

Yeah, no, I think that showing up is an extremely important aspect to this. So I was wondering, what’s one thing you learned as an undercover agent that impacts how you communicate and negotiate?

Undercover Insights: Building Connections Beyond First Impressions [18:48]

MF:

The undercover program was wonderful for me to learn how to really ingratiate yourself. Again, it goes back to assessing who you’re working with, right? And we just talked about where are they?

Who are their friends? What are they interested in? What do they talk about? Tells you what they care about. So we had one target in an undercover we worked on, he was a bad dude. He did bad things, he committed crimes his entire life, but he loved his son. And you could hear him talk about his son and playing golf.

And so you knew that there were areas that you could work through of things that he cared about. We also had other targets where they had kids that you never heard word one about the kids. Because it wasn’t a priority to them. And so I can’t bring my own thoughts and feelings to that situation of you should care about this because maybe they don’t.

And I have to adjust my strategy based on what they care about. And so that was the most important. I universally dealt with people who everyone would agree is not a good person. And I could have everyone supporting me treating them poorly. That doesn’t make me successful at all. So in an undercover case I had, they were like, okay, Melissa, this is what we need you to do.

We need you to go with this organized crime figure who had been a mafia hitman. He killed like eight people. He went to jail for it for 20 years. And they’re like, we’re going to send you and him somewhere together. But if I had in my head thought, Oh my gosh, this guy has killed eight people and he does this and we couldn’t be more different, right?

We would never have made a connection. Fast forward. We have our meeting where he and I go somewhere together to meet someone. We have a surveillance team watching us. We all come back after the operation. And one of the guys on the surveillance team says. Melissa, I’m so disturbed by how comfortable and how much fun it looked like you were having with him at this place.

And I said to him, I have to say he was actually charming. You know, but if I never allowed him to be or to approach the situation, it would have showed up really differently. We would not have been as successful in that operation either. Cause you would have sensed this weird disconnect where we shouldn’t have been based on what the operation was, right? So it can make a huge difference if you just allow and open yourself up.

AD:

Yeah, I call that sometimes this kind of idea of tactical rapport, tactical trust, that it’s needed in the moment to accomplish whatever we’re trying to do. Doesn’t mean we’re going to be lifelong best friends, but we can still create connection to do whatever work needs to happen immediately.

You’ve done some work, I believe, with ransomware, you know, whether it’s that or cyber threats or other technology advances or just social dynamics that are changing. What do you see as you look out into the future and you look into your crystal ball, Melissa.

What do you see as current and future shifts in negotiation practices, whether it’s around technical changes, technology changes or societal changes or anything like that?

The Role Of Technology In Modern Negotiations And Crisis Response [21:59]

MF:

In fairness, I probably am a bit of the older generation now. So I do get a little nervous of some of the technology changes. You know, I see so much about people like AI and negotiations and this, I think it would be amazing in preparation and giving you information. I just hope we don’t ever replace it and put it in place of humans.

Because there’s such a power in that connection that you can make. In ransomware, yes, that is a new thing. But what I realize is it is so much like a kidnap for ransom. The benefit of it is you have time to slow down because a lot of it’s over, you know, email or text or something. So it allows you time to not have to respond in the moment.

So there’s benefits to that. I do think the ransomware thing is just growing and growing. I think like anything, Nolan, like you mentioned, it’s more just what is the process. How can we look at this problem and solve it on a lot of different fronts? I hope we’re not having each company individually address it whenever it hits them.

I hope we’re trying to come together as corporations and government and tackle it a different way. Obviously the FBI is doing investigations and trying to shut things down. But really coming together, because many times I think people silo themselves off. There’s probably business reasons for why they don’t tell a lot of people that that happens, right?

But we have to try to learn to proactively work together because I think we can attack this problem differently before it’s even happening to people. And I just think if we put people in their individual little lanes where they’re trying to figure it out themselves, that’s not helpful. Maybe you have a decryption key already.

Maybe you’ve dealt with these people and you can recognize from the threats that I’m getting, Oh, this is such and such a group. Then you’ll know. Everyone that’s dealt with such and such a group, this is how it typically goes, kind of establishing those patterns and practices, I think can take some of the emotion and fear out of a situation when you can predict certain things.

Maybe not exactly, but you can just say maybe it might go this way. And then when you start to see things happening, you just feel a little bit better. We did that all the time in kidnapped for Ransom cases. I have not worked every kidnapped for ransom case, but I can leverage the big bureau and tell you of all the cases we’ve all worked, this is what we see.

That has brought comfort to families when it’s the only one they’ve ever seen, and it’s the worst of the worst. It helps when I tell them, we’ve seen this a lot. We even have it where, if you were kidnapped in Mexico, in this town, by this group, we’re probably getting in the ransom payment range of X to Y. Those kinds of predictions, I just think make people feel better when it’s so unknown.

NM:

That’s pretty powerful, especially when you, when you start thinking through in a business context, the opportunities that are still here in the future. So what haven’t we asked you today that you’d like to leave our listeners with as kind of a final key takeaway?

Deep Dive Into Negotiation: Beyond Quick Fixes To Mastering The Craft [25:00]

MF:

Oh, the broad question. I love it. I guess my biggest takeaway is. I hear so many people wanting to learn a tip or a technique or a trick, tell me what to say here, just give me the, and they just want the quick two-second answer to solve a very complex problem. And we talked about this earlier, there’s so many layers in negotiations.

What I would love people to do is study it. I think you should study it and understand these concepts, but really absorb them at a cellular level, like the mindset, what you’re bringing to the table, how you feel about the other person. If you’re coming in to win, to dominate and take everything, I think you’ve missed your mark.

If you’re faking, you know, the empathy and all those things, people are going to know it. You may be successful in the short term in this one negotiation. I just don’t think that that benefits you in the long run. And so I guess that’s it. I would love people to just really study it and understand it from the human element more so than just tell me what I can do to win. I just think you’d miss the mark if you’re talking like that.

AD:

I love that response, study to absorb it. Can I add, then really practice, like dedicate practice. I mean, I think one things that I love about what you and your colleagues do, Melissa, is intentional practice, whether it’s kind of the back to back, you know, rehearsing the negotiation because we know we don’t get to see the person in real life.

So we’re going to be talking through a phone or talking through a door. So we’re going to practice where the way we’re going to do it in real life. I think everybody, we can all just practice more.

MF:

And Aram, what I love about that is practice everywhere. Practice in the low stakes and in the high stakes, right?

Because if you can’t do it in your personal life with the people that love you, how do you think you’re going to do it with someone that doesn’t want to give you anything that doesn’t like you? Right?

AD:

Right.

MF:

I don’t know, I fail miserably with my children every day, but it gives me opportunity to practice and go, Oop, that went horribly wrong.

Now I understand why it didn’t. I was off track. Let me try this. And then you just like try the concept, the idea that we talk about and then you see the effect. Then you feel so good about it. Then you practice it elsewhere. It becomes more natural then when you’re in your high stakes negotiation. It just flows out better.So I agree, practice everywhere.

AD:

Well, Melissa Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us today and for sharing your insights

MF:

Thank you both. I really enjoyed our conversation.

NM:

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Well, that is it for us on today’s podcast. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the NEGOTIATEx podcast, and we’ll see you in the next episode.