Nolan Martin :
Hello, and welcome to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. I am your co-host and co-founder, Nolan Martin. With me, as always, co-host, co-founder, Aram Donigian. Aram, how are you doing today?
Aram Donigian :
I’m great, Nolan. Thanks. How are you?
NM :
I’m doing well. Excited for our guests today.
AD :
Oh, I am too. You know, we often talk about serendipitous moments. We’ve had a few guests on that used the word “serendipity.” It’s one of my favorite words. Nice little legacy about how that word came into vernacular. But our guests today are really brought to us because of serendipity. I had the great pleasure a couple of months ago to teach a program to parents of graduating students at Tuck, family members.
AD :
And one of my favorite students came up afterwards, introduced me to his sister who’s on the program today. And she was so kind then to make another introduction to our other guest who is using concepts that we talk about all the time and using them in a different way. And so I just thought, especially as we wrap up one year and get ready for the next year, this is a very apropos sort of topic to discuss, so I’m excited for this.
AD :
Let me introduce our guests. Sakshi Arora is a professor of electrical engineering and a behavioral health coach. Her work is inspired by her own experience overcoming autoimmune disorders. With a PhD from Stanford, she combines her technical background with wellbeing science to help tech professionals prevent burnout.
AD :
Ashna Sikri is a go-to-market strategist and product marketer with diverse experience in technology and startups. As a computer science graduate managing ADHD, she’s passionate about mental health advocacy in the tech industry. Sakshi, Ashna, thank you both for joining us today.
Sakshi Arora :
Thank you. Thank you so much, Aram, for the lovely introduction. Thank you.
Ashna Sikri :
Yeah. Great to be here. Thank you.
NM :So Sakshi, you’re a hardware engineer at Apple. Can you tell us about your own wellness journey that led you to your current focus on the burnout of tech employees?
Transforming Personal Health Struggles Into A Mission For Workplace Wellness [01:57]
SA :
Hey thanks for that question, Nolan. I think the easiest thing would have been, hey, blame everything on maybe Apple. But the truth is it’s not. So my own journey is inspired by my recovery from autoimmune diseases. So, of course, when I was at Apple, again, you mentioned Apple, but they were the best employers I could have asked for. I highlight this because most of the times we just push it on others and that just defers the problem.
SA :
So for me, I had my first child and I was a typical type A kind of an engineer. So I would, between motherhood and work, I would just compromise myself and sleep and everything health, because everything happens to you the first time. So you don’t realize what’s coming and autoimmune diseases come in pairs and sometimes in bunches. So for me, it was multiple autoimmune disorders at the same time, because of compromised sleep for almost a year. So I would sleep for two to three hours and just work, or take care of my child. And once they came like real bad. So I had lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, shrouding at 30, mid thirties.
SA :
So after that, yeah, I thought there’s no, I still have life, so I wanted to get my life back. So I had just new engineering approach to life. That’s all I had been, how long, how much ever I could remember. So I put spreadsheets to health, just put everything I ate on that spreadsheet and thought about how am I getting enough nutrients? Am I getting enough micronutrients? And all those things, but long story short, but once I got into remission, then I thought that it’s not just me. When I looked around, there were so many engineers who were burning themselves out without knowing that they are burning themselves out. It was a no- way-out kind of a situation for me where I just thought that I have nothing else to do, but just to help people.
SA :
So I started this program. where I would help people in tech, people like me who were burning out or at the edge of burning out without even knowing the word “burning out.” So that’s what I did. And I transitioned into conducting these programs for people in tech.
NM :
Awesome. I’m curious, Ashna, how’d you connect with Sakshi and why does this work inspire you?
Embracing Serendipity: A Journey To Emotional Management & Wellbeing In Tech [04:08]
AS :
Thank you for that question. That’s another serendipity moment, to be honest, in my life. And I’m quite grateful to a friend. I had just moved to Bangalore and I met a friend’s wife and she told me about Sakshi. She had taken the program and she was deeply inspired. With my background, I’ve contributed to the growth of some fast paced startups here in India.
AS :
And that kind of growth or outcomes come sometimes at a cost to your wellbeing. The other part of that picture is that I’m someone who manages neurodivergence and ADHD. And what that means is that there’s a lot of emotional high and low on a daily basis. There’s a lot of mood swings, which sometimes I don’t know how to be consistent and work with them.
AS :
And when that happens, you’re almost out of options because you want to contribute, high work ethic, but that kind of also leads to a guilt and shame cycle. I’ve also been someone who’s been very active, physically all my life. So I knew that I’m already doing sports or I’m already doing something.
AS :
What I never learned was how to manage emotions, how in habits that are actually positive loops. Help me and, you know, just help my brain go better. And that’s where this intersected for me.
NM :
Thank you!
AD :
No, I appreciate that. And especially as it ties back to what Sakshi was saying about going, when you’re, as you’re experiencing life, we all go through it for the first time, we don’t get a do over typically, maybe certain aspects of life, but in terms of life in general, so we’re going through it the first time. Whether it’s motherhood or it’s burnout from work, it’s the stresses, it’s the emotional managing of emotions, ours and others. We’re doing that for the first time. And I don’t know about you, but I don’t remember getting the playbook for how to manage that in a healthy way.
AD :
And so it sounds like as we get into this conversation, maybe you’re going to start helping us get a little bit of that instruction manual on how to take care of ourselves a little better so we can show up a little bit more productive. Sakshi, I shifted over to your website. It’s called smell the mint leaves. Let’s take a little side note. You’re going to, it’s a cute name. You’re going to have to tell us the reason for the name.
AD :
But as we went through your website, there’s some really surprising, even shocking numbers on there. 42% of tech employees are at high risk of burnout, 56% can’t relax once their workday is over, 70% feel the need to learn strategies to manage stress. Wow. What’s going on over there?
How A Mint Garden Inspired A Journey To Mindfulness & Managing Burnout [06:22]
SA :
Thanks for the question. And I wish we had a playbook, but I hope by the end of the podcast, we get closer to it. But as I’ll take the first question first, by the name, as I was mentioning in the previous question, that pre-burnout for, we moved in a house and it was for two, two and a half years, just before burning out.
SA :
We were there in that house and there was mint growing in the backyard. As we all know, mint would just take up whichever space you give it. And it grows like crazy. It came as a surprise to me that when I went on disability leave, following the autoimmune disorders, and I stepped into the backyard and I saw mint for the first time, and I was like, okay, where have I been living?
SA :
How come all this mint has come and where it has appeared from? And it was such a shock to me that this is the state you can be in where you just don’t realize what’s happening around you. So perhaps that was an indicator for me to start that blog as a means to connect to more people who might be in the same boat without realizing it. And hey, please give some time to yourself and go out. And smell the mint leaves. Mint, by the way, smells wonderful. I don’t know if you like the smell of mint.
AD :
We do. And my wife would say the same thing. It takes over everything. What a wonderful thing to plant. It actually keeps weeds from coming up too. It’s just a wonderful thing.
SA :
Very well said. So yeah, that blog was a way for me to keep the weeds from coming, as you just said. So the next question that you said was the surprising statistics about burnout and stress. So I have two points on that.
SA :
The first one is thanks to statistics today. Thanks to the numbers that we have today. I’m not sure if these numbers existed a decade ago also, maybe they did. Maybe we didn’t just didn’t have the stats to support that. And what a sad thing that if you don’t have stats, then you don’t even know what’s going on. So first I would say, I’m so grateful to see these stats because when you see the numbers, math has this power to influence action.
SA :
So when you see these numbers, it’s easier for people to convince at the workplace that, hey, I need a stress management or a stress relief break or a day off. If there are no numbers, no one would ever know, or maybe just be quietly suffering. So first off, I don’t know whether these numbers existed in the past. But they are shocking. Yes. And the second point that I have is if these numbers are growing, let’s assume these numbers are growing. One important thing could be just the fact that social media is making us compare ourselves with others on a daily or an hourly basis.
SA :
So earlier, if you were “successful,” more successful than me, I don’t know what that means anymore, but say you were more successful than me. I would just not know about everyone’s success. Maybe my neighbors, maybe my family members. But today pretty much you open LinkedIn and it’s like, everyone is doing so well. Is it just me who’s still struggling? So that is hard. And that can induce stress in you where you are overcompensating for something you don’t need to.
SA :
Maybe the person you are comparing yourself to is feeling the same way. How do you know? So that is like pseudo stress, I say. So the pseudo stress is perhaps making these numbers go up. I don’t have an answer to how to bring these numbers down except for managing your mental and physical health. But perhaps all of us have to join hands.
SA :
What you all are doing with respect to negotiations is huge. So perhaps these numbers would influence more of us to come and take action.
AD :
So you said math has the power to influence action. And I just had to say. Spoken like a true engineer. So this comparison anxiety that social media is contributing to the pseudo stress that we’re seeing, what I heard you say, doesn’t make it sound like it’s just unique to tech professionals, but perhaps, all of us, regardless of where we work, just even parenting, this is something that can show up.
AD :
I’m curious. Do you see this problem in other industries? And do you see any trends as you started to work and coach others? Are there trends, positions, roles, new managers? Mid level managers. I don’t know, gender trends, but are there any trends that you see that have been interesting?
Unpacking Trends In Stress: The Impact Of Life Transitions Across Different Demographics [10:33]
SA :
Yeah, I love the word trends. Thanks for asking that question. Yes, I do see trends, but please, I would like to put a caveat that every trend that a person observes has to come with the nuance that it can be biased, right? So let’s assume that before I say anything. So yes, the trends that I observe, I’ll mention the trends and then come to myself.
SA :
So the first trend was that, hey, women are the ones who are most stressed because child raising supposedly is more on them. Responsibility is more on them. They are the ones who go through this physical strain of giving birth to a child. And we don’t know, postpartum depression, et cetera. might hit real bad. So I don’t want to discount all that. So there is some physiology which cannot be discounted.
SA :
Having said that, I don’t think dads go through less stress than moms. So every time I establish a trend and I try to generalize, there come two or three cases which just challenge my assumption because the more I talk to men, then I realize that women go through this stress of, hey, my body has changed, I’m not as effective. I’m raising a child. All this responsibility is on me.
SA :
And the more I interact with men one on one, it’s shocking that they talk or share little, but their stressors could be different. There are, I’ve had men, clients who are men, and they would mention the amount of stress they take for financial responsibility of their family. See, the thing I’ve realized is that all these lines are blurred with time and we have advanced, but the stressors remain as such.
SA :
So this response, financial responsibility may not be true. The woman might be taking up as much, but your stressor stays. The woman might not be the only person responsible for raising the child, but her stressor stays. There’s some anthropology to it also. So trends would be there. So long story short, the trends that I see is this trend is always there. That all groups think that the stressor is just there.
SA :
So if you put women in a group, they would say, hey, this happens with them. And if you put engineers in the group, engineers would say, hey, only engineers go through it. I gave a presentation to an all Caucasian crowd, and it was surprising that they said, hey, this imposter syndrome thing is cultural. And when I gave the same talk to crowd here in India. They were like, hey, people in America don’t have this stress. I’m like, okay. Trends should be taken with a pinch of salt because it’s very contextual.
SA :
The trend, which I think is solid, is transition. Any transition you go through, if it’s a new parent, gender, I won’t take a stand, but new parent, new manager, any new thing, any new transition takes some time to settle. And that settling time, if we can somehow give people a little bit support or maybe heads up, that it will be okay that can take the stress off them. So the only trend which now I stick to is transitional trend or a trend, which is any transition you’re making: new job, new work, new manager, new role, new parent. That’s it.
AD :
I find that very interesting and helpful, both in terms of thinking through how I would manage my own stress when I’m experiencing change myself, I also think, and I probably didn’t. I wish I would have considered this 20 years ago when I had a number of subordinates and reports was the impact of change on the people I lead. And as you said, you’re giving time and space for things to settle. I think I could have done that much better.
SA :
Same here.
NM :
So Sakshi, considering the help you provide clients, what are the fundamental wellbeing and habit science principles that guide your approach to coaching?
Three Keys To Effective Habit Formation: Embracing Self-Esteem, Kindness & Realistic Goals [14:13]
SA :
There could be plenty, but let me choose just three. So the first one is no shoulds. I’ve realised that guilt derails the habit building process like nothing else. Say for example, you should be waking up at 5am. You should be a part of 5am club. You should not be eating junk. You should be sleeping by 10pm. Or you should be reading a book a day. Et cetera. So the shoulds of life are guilt inducing and they take longer to form a habit because guilt can derail the whole thing.
SA :
So that’s the first. So keep some habit margins. I’ll go for a walk. So maybe five days a week, instead of saying tomorrow onwards, I’m going to be a changed person. You will see me going to the gym every single day. So when I hear a client say that, I would just nudge and ask, what’s your confidence? Is it more than eight on 10 that you would be able to do it? If the client comes back and says it will be six. And I would say, what would it take for you to build the confidence to it online instead of the habit?
SA :
I would say the second thing is just extending this point is self esteem first. If you prioritize your self esteem, I am good enough. Then magic happens. Then you don’t need much support. That’s the biggest thing which I think is missing in habit building, which is self esteem. The third, which I think ties to the both of them is kindness.
SA :
And that’s the hardest. So kindness with yourself, especially in the age of social media, where you have so many Instagram and Facebook, and I don’t know, LinkedIn. Ideal standards being put on your posts every single day. It’s very hard to not compare and be, I am not good enough. So being kind with ourselves, all of us are on a different journey of habit building and then carve your plan.
SA :
All of us are meticulous planners because we’ve been with ourselves. So please trust that you are an expert at yourself. No one else. So if you trust that you are an expert at yourself, everything else will follow.
AD :
Given these three principles that Sakshi just walked us through, what do you see as the core differences between talk therapy, which some folks might be thinking that’s what we’re talking about, versus behavioral coaching and which is important when?
The Distinctive Roles Of Therapy & Coaching [16:16]
AS :
Thank you for asking that question. It’s super pertinent. I also say this because we get this question a lot. Whenever someone is in a space where they feel ready to seek assistance, one of the first questions we get is, why am I not going to a therapist? For me, the answer was both. Personally, I’ve been in about a year and a half of therapy myself. I’m very grateful for that. There were some things I recognized I needed to learn from behavioral health coaching. And so before I even answer that question, the truth is to each their own. It’s like you have to piece the puzzles together. There really is no playbook, sadly. But that said, one of the core differences, what I would say is therapy kind of focuses on the why.
AS :
Understanding why what happened happened and often that means because a lot of our patterns are known to be formed before the age of seven. Often that means going back to childhood and digging much deeper within yourselves within your relationship with your primary caregivers, the environment you were raised in and what really happened.
AS :
Why do I have certain responses the way I have them? When we come to coaching, it’s like, how do I start today? And so it’s really about the what are your strengths? What did you learn? We’re not digging a lot deeper into the past. We’re looking at, that all of us come with, we all have these happy hormones in our brains. That’s much deeper. There’s a lot of elements to it, but essentially what kind of habits, what kind of behaviors can influence me. To help myself thrive looking forward. And while I identify that core difference at the same time, this is much more subtle, it’s much more nuanced. The line is very blurred and it’s very gray.
AS :
We don’t recommend anything. It’s really about you finding out a lot of the clients come and do both. Because sometimes you have to go a little bit into the past and then that kind of fuels you much more ahead and that kind of leap, it really works differently for everyone. What I would still intersect back into what’s common with both and because I feel like I’ve been lucky with the kind of people that I’ve worked with in my life. And so what I’ve learned is the one thing that’s common with both is autonomy.
AS :
Neither of these spaces are giving you the answer like Sakshi said, you are still the expert in your life. What they do create is a space for you to sometimes reflect, to sometimes relook at things, and also, for you to know that there are other people out there. And so you have a support system, a scaffolding to build yourself, but really I think that answer is much more subtle. And so there is no real answer. I think it’s for you to discover, but I think I’m very grateful that whether it’s therapy, whether it’s coaching, whether it’s somatic, there’s just a lot more that exists out in the world. Yeah. I think that’s what it was.
AD :
It’s a beautiful response. I, and the emphasis there, both have their time and place in the role of autonomy, right? For people to really determine what’s best. The X, being the expert of your own life, which just seems to be at the essence of the work that you both involved in.
NM :
You attended a negotiation session with Aram at Tuck, which is what led us to this connection, the serendipitous moment earlier, what we’re exploring today might be summed up as negotiating with oneself. I’m curious what connections you made with the concepts.
Rethinking Negotiation: Gaining Clarity & Empowering Personal Needs [19:35]
AS :
I would honestly say I got really lucky to have attended that lecture. It really touched me. And what’s also amazing is the kind of work that is being done, like just the intersections between that class and what we’re talking about. And while negotiations often in the workplace is something you need, I think, I don’t know if Aaron realizes, but I’m sure it also changes people’s lives.
AS :
And it also helps them de stress or maybe de stress is just, I don’t think it even captures it, but I’m sure it changes. It changed my thinking in a lot of ways. And I’ll tell you one thing that really stood out and that was on a one on one with Aram and he said to me, negotiation does not mean compromise. And it really touched me. And I also say this because I think I mentioned to him, I fall into this triad of people I’ve now realized who care about intellect, honesty, and kindness. When you’re sensitive or very near an empath and often that’s looked upon as weaknesses, you know in the hardcore real world.
AS :
Sometimes when people like me go out into the world, we compromise our needs. We care about other people and so often to us that means I don’t want to harm you. And what that also means is I do not know how to meet my needs sometimes. And that brings me to another point, which is even more important because that lecture was, it was almost like systems thinking, which is also beautiful. It was so relatable because it’s broken down into modules. There is a method to the madness, essentially.
AS :
But what it also asked me was what do you need, which means I’m first looking in deeper into my own clarity. And so negotiation is not. It is much more deeper into understanding what I need in this world and then coming and arriving to my own clarity. And that’s also interesting because that clarity of the whole situation. The third thing that I absolutely loved about that lecture was including emotional intelligence into it. I think not enough learning in the world talks about emotional intelligence, but when you’re essentially dealing with people or even yourself, so interpersonal or inner, either way, emotions really dominate the day.
AS :
And then how do you create shared value? It really changed for me, how I look, at negotiation. I think it’s a work in progress to be honest, but creating shared value with someone like me can relate to it.
AD :
Thank you so much. What a wonderful summary and a great connection. I think for listeners to understand why we wanted Sakshi and Ashna to come on and the connection that we saw and the overlap, I don’t believe that negotiation is about compromise and I think when you’re talking about personal wellbeing. That’s not something you can compromise either, or you end up in a really dangerous place.
AD :
Let’s get into some of these overlaps. And Sakshi, actually going back to you, your clients talk about highlight the nonviolent communication or NVC as a total game changer. What is NVC? How would you define it? And can you share an example of how it has impacted a client’s personal or professional life?
Nonviolent Communication: Bridging Thoughts & Feelings For Healthier Interactions [22:38]
SA :
That’s a great one. Nonviolent communication is a method by Marshall Rosenberg, a huge fan of his work. So he says that any communication can be perceived as violence. You might not think that you’re being obviously violent in obvious terms, but it can still be perceived as violence if four things are not taken care of.
SA :
So the method to nonviolent communication, if I may just give a quick summary is observe, feel, need, request. In any situation, if you can observe without judgment and then understand what you’re feeling tied to the needs, thanks to Ashna to bring the word “needs” before this question and then make a request. And when you’re making a request to someone, be ready to hear a no.
SA :
It’s okay to get a no as an answer because everyone’s autonomy is important, right? It’s my decision to say a no. But one thing that has stayed with me is I’m responsible for how I feel. And you are responsible for how you feel, what you do or say, it’s not your job to make me feel a certain way. That to me is so powerful because most of the times that we are making requests, so we are in the middle of a conflict. It’s very hard to not blame.
SA :
So when you can get rid of the blames and own up your feelings, the world starts to look different. We can have a whole session on NVC and how I use it in health and how I’ve seen clients being impacted. But one thing which is very important to me is the feelings versus thoughts. So Marshall says that most of the times we do not have the vocabulary to even understand what we are feeling. Many a times when we say, for example, I say, hey, I’m feeling ignored or I feel I’m not good enough. Now this ignored and not good enough are your thoughts.
SA :
They’re not necessarily how you feel. You feel sad. You feel anxious. You feel disappointed. You feel happy, excited. Those are feelings. But when we start confusing feelings and thoughts, it’s very hard to address them. Now, coming to your question of how it helps a client. I’ll just take this thought forward about feelings and thoughts so that we can give example or tangible example to the feelings versus thoughts. I have clients. I feel my family ignores me, or I feel my workplace ignores me, or they sideline me. That’s a very common thing, especially when you are a new manager. When you’re a new manager, your reports won’t listen to you. So they would, maybe you’ve ruffled a few feathers when you became a new manager.
SA :
People are not by your side, et cetera. It takes some time. When your words are, I feel I’m not good enough, or I feel I don’t belong. I feel people are not listening to me. None of this is feeling. I When none of this is feeling, it’s hard for you to address. Why? Because feelings are deeper and more long lasting in nature. Thoughts by their very definition are like bubbles and they would come and go. So when I say I’m not good enough versus I feel I’m not good enough, it’s so word of a difference between these two sentences.
SA :
So when I have a client, this is by the way, almost all clients where they say, I feel I’m not good enough. This is like a permanent sentence. And when it comes, I have to stop myself from smiling because they might think that I am not valuing their sentence or their emotion. On the contrary, I am just smiling at the fact that how common this can be without the person knowing that this is so common, right?
SA :
When you address it using NVC or nonviolent communication, the first thing is let’s not be violent towards ourselves. And you say, I feel I’m not good enough. First step. What are you observing? I observed that the person would not respond to my email. Let’s not just judge it. Let’s look at an observation. How did it make you feel? It made me feel sad and confused. Okay. And your thought was, I wasn’t good enough. Let’s separate the two. I was feeling what? I was feeling sad. I was feeling disconnected. Then what was your need? My need is to be, that’s where most of them get stuck. My need is to be appreciated or maybe accepted or maybe loved.
SA :
Okay, so now let’s come to the request. It’s my need to be appreciated. My request would be, I observed that you did not reply to my email. That made me feel confused because it’s my need to connect. May I request you to let me know what time works for you for us to meet. When you structure your thought process in this way, the inner conflicts calm down and you can then come to the point which I work on, which is your health.
SA :
So that makes you sleep better. It makes you not go for that burger, but instead make a better choice. So for me, it was a big revelation when I realized that none of sleep exercise, nutrition would work unless they get their inner conflicts calm down because of which, when Ashna told me about your work, I was like, oh my God, negotiations are huge with respect to negotiating with yourself for health, otherwise it’s very hard. Trust me, I don’t, it’s very hard. If a client gets stuck with a conflict like this at work, they wouldn’t give a damn about sleep or eating well, everything goes out of hand, so that’s my stand.
NM :
Hey everyone, Nolan here, I have to jump in and end today’s podcast for Part A of the show. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to NEGOTIATEx podcast if you haven’t already, and also join us next week for part B of this awesome interview.
