Nolan Martin :
Hey everyone! Thanks for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Sakshi Arora and Ashna Sikri. If you haven’t already checked out Part A of the show, be sure to do that first. Let’s jump into the conversation with Sakshi and Ashna.
Aram Donigian :
As a followup, I love the structure of what you shared, some of this separating out thoughts and feelings and require some unlearning. Can you talk a little bit about the process you take clients through during a session to help them unlearn the things that have gotten us to this point in the first place.
The Role of Affirmations & Unlearning In Achieving Personal Goals [00:37]
Sakshi Arora :So well said. This brings me back to Ashna’s point on therapy goes for why, and coaching goes for the what of fit. So to your point of unlearning, I’ll just give you an example and that’ll make it clear. Say I’m talking to a client and they would be like, last week, you know, Sakshi, I set up a goal for going for a run every single day. You know, this is who I am. I never stick to my plans. I make plans, but they never stick. I just made this plan. And I just went for around two days last week. Okay. Hold on. So you went for around two days a week? Yes, I did. Okay. Can we reframe the sentence? We call it affirmations. Of course, all of us call it affirmations.
It is affirmation of a kind where you don’t put the word, but in between, let me give an example. Last week, I set a target for running all days a week and I ran for twice a week or twice last week. Now, as soon as you put the word, but in between your brain would think of deficit. Oh my God, you don’t stick to your plans.
You’re not good enough. So instead you put the word and. That way you are realistic about it. You’re not shying away from saying that, hey, I committed to this and I did this. So as soon as I put affirmations in place, then it makes it easier for you to stick to it and go further.
Coming back to self esteem, now, this is all the unlearning that is needed. The biggest unlearning is your vocabulary doesn’t put you down. Your vocabulary doesn’t let go of your self esteem. Self esteem first, unlearning is not putting yourself down. Unlearning is learning is the art of affirmation. Learn the art of affirmation, which will help you grow and then make bigger goals and chase them.
NM :
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s an important concept. Negotiation is the concept of and, but I’m not good at it. It’s something I’m definitely still working on. If you tell your counterpart, I’m going to take this back to my boss and I don’t know if he’s necessarily going to agree, but we’ll see what he says.
It’s much different than saying, I’m going to take this back to my boss, but I don’t really think it means, it basically just counteracts anything that you’re actually trying to do there.
AD :
It’s one of, so many things around unlearning are around how we frame things in our own mind. It’s our narrative that we’ve either been told that we must carry or that we’ve just adopted. And it’s, I mean what you’re talking about, so actually is rewriting that narrative.
SA :
Very well said.
NM :
Sakshi, what strategies do you use to ensure the wellness habits are sustainable in the long term, especially during challenging times?
The Four Pillars Of Sustainable Habit Formation [03:09]
SA :
That’s a great question. And I don’t know who is the person behind it. But there are four things to intrinsic motivation. So usually, we think motivation is all external and you need to get inspired from outside, but for long term, if you’re intrinsically motivated, that is the longest running motivation that you can have.
And for that, there are. Quite a few things that can work for you. But the first one is for habits to stick for a long term. I think it’s very important to have intrinsic motivation, you from within, feel motivated to do something with respect to forming your healthy habits. And the very important thing about that is that the first thing is your self esteem, as I said, has to be high, which means affirmations need to continue.
The next one is vicarious learning. Now that’s a very powerful thing. When you have some kind of a community around you, habits tend to stick for long because you get inspired by others. The third thing is physiological states. Even if you can’t do a lot, even if you get your feet wet, have a small backup ritual.
For example, I will just do 10 squats. I’ll just go for maybe five minutes walk. Break it down to such a small goal that it’s possible. It gets your self efficacy up. Self efficacy is your belief that you can do something. So that gets you intrinsic motivation up. So that’s one. I call these four principles.
Again, I don’t remember who came up with this. I put the fourth letter there. It’s called CARE. Competence, Autonomy, Relatedness, Education. CARE. So if you can get your competence up, which means keep affirming. I couldn’t go for a run. That’s okay. I went for a walk for five minutes. And so keep your competence up. Don’t compromise it for any habit. You are much bigger than all your habits put together. So that’s competence.
Second one is autonomy. You are an expert at yourself. Ashna emphasized that for other question also. Autonomy. Your autonomy is paramount. If you’re being influenced by others and copying someone on social media, it’s a very short lived kind of a habit. Long term autonomy first.
Third one is relatedness. The more you connect with your community, the more you have people who make you believe that it’s not just you, or they’re inspiring. Then that goes a long way to sustain a habit, competence, autonomy, relatedness. The last one is education. There’s lots of education on the net today. So I would say decluttering, making it really simple.
Say, for example, all the health habits can be summarized to a few things. Lifestyle, exercise, attitude, nutrition, LEAN. And I call it CLEANS, which means Communication, Lifestyle, Exercise, Attitude, Nutrition, Stress management. So if you can keep everything very simple, get your competence first, habit next.
Autonomy, very important, relatedness. Very very important. That’s an example of this podcast to increase relatedness. So if you listen to podcasts, the chances of you being intrinsically motivated go up because you relate. Relate to people who are talking on the podcast. So that’s tremendous work that all of you’re doing because it’ll help people form habits in the long run. Decluttering information.
Again, something that the podcast is doing is get things simple and in place. So for CARE: competence, autonomy, relatedness, education.
AD :
I like it. Always a fan of a good acronym that has that applicability.
NM :
So Ashna, following up on what Sakshi just said, would love to know your perspective on what strategies do you use to ensure that wellness habits are sustainable in the longterm, especially during challenging times.
Enhancing Self-Awareness & Autonomy In Habit Formation [06:52]
Ashna Sikri :
I think that’s a great question. And I’m really glad she took that because maybe someone needed to hear that, but to add to that, like for me, before even getting strategy, like getting to action mode, understanding where I am and the why was very important. There’s something called habit consideration cycles, actually, that we talk about in the program.
And what that means is that if my habit is meditation X number of days a week, but where am I right now? Am I in pre consideration or if my habit is sugar, I want to quit sugar. Am I, where do I look at content and be like, no, I don’t really need to do it. I don’t need to quit sugar. Or am I in consideration where I’m looking at people? I’m like, okay, maybe this makes sense. This does some harm. Do I need to leave?
And then I move into preparation. It’s beyond the consideration zones that you start thinking about, okay, what can I do about it? A lot of your wellness content actually sits into preparation. And so if I consume something on the internet and I’m like, why am I not quitting? Why am I not like this person? Because I’m in consideration zone. I’m not even there yet. And action comes much later. That was the game changer for me, to be honest. Understanding with respect to any habit, where am I? Because that again, intunes me back into my body. Then the answer is not somewhere else. It’s about, where am I? If I’m not doing squats, like 10 squats, why? Maybe because I don’t feel the need to, maybe that’s not what I need.
What we’re lucky at with social media, to be honest, and that’s digressing a little is access to information and awareness. What sadly we do not know is how to access it sometimes. What’s the perspective towards it. And that’s always a big challenge within the program or any kind of wellness content, right? So I think strategies, I don’t know, but to begin with, where am I? What do I need? And they’re being very authentic. And that’s where not comparing myself also comes in.
And so for me, that bank of, really understanding in a subtler way, is the context of my own body needs, my own body intuition, and then also then diving into, okay, now that I’m prepared, what works for me? And I could dive for that. Like for me, I need a balance of everything. I’m a very active person. I need everything from nature to meditation, to yoga, to just play, which is maybe something like slacklining or just flow arts or a deep, meaningful conversation or a book, it’s just for me, it’s like the world is an oyster now, because now that I understand, it’s wow, there’s so many mediums.
To go out and do something for myself. So I don’t really feel like I’m lonely. There’s just another community I can go and join and I can try something. But yeah, just the crux of understanding, I think that helped.
AD :
I think the awareness piece that you’re building out there, it’s just such an incredible four important foundation. I was doing a program just a little while ago on resiliency with a group. And we were taking them through an activity to force the idea of change. And then we asked them how they felt as we were going through this exercise that was just all about changing instructions and that, and the words were frustrated and annoyed and confused.
And I can just imagine the internal churn that was creating for them. When I said what helped was somebody said when I was able to take a creative lens on this challenge that you were presenting to us that we’ve shifted this for me. And I hear as you’re talking about outlets and what’s the appropriate outlet and that there’s some options there, there’s a piece of that creative part to getting through all this.
AS :
Absolutely. I think if I may, I’ll add to that where creativity and play, which is almost childlike innocence. That’s so important because unlearning for me meant being a child, just being in that curious space. And there’s this beautiful book. I know we’re not coding, but I remember reading this book called The Artist’s Way. And this woman, she spoke about artist dates, just taking yourself out of on a date and that’s also something that I said, I’m just going to go and do something new because you just get back to the childish sense of wonder with no comparisons and that helps.
AD :
A lot of our listeners are mid level managers, they’re professionals in their careers. One of our biggest fans happens to be my mom who is 80 years old and I can say that with a little degree of humility, she’s had autoimmune issues mostly for the last 50 years. Just happens to coincide with about the same time I was born. I’m not sure I’m the cause of that. I have two older sisters, but that changed to having the first boy.
Anyways, what advice, Sakshi, can someone who’s older apply some of these same concepts around wellbeing and experience some of the same, healthy transition that you’re talking about?
Empowering Choices In Managing Autoimmune Conditions Across Generations [11:22]
SA :
That’s such a great question that touched me because if I may add Aram, I have a very personal story. I think autoimmune runs in a family and it crosses gender across generations. So my grandma died of autoimmune disorders, but at that time there was very little medication and she had exact same autoimmune bunch that I have. But I’m so grateful that we have medical science helping us at least to make healthy choices and helping us through the transition.
So when you talk about your mother, it just hits real deep. How do we address it? As Ashna was also mentioning, prescriptive is not the training that I have. So there’s nothing prescriptive about what I’m going to say. So advice, maybe I don’t have an advice. But I can give a structure which she can choose from.
We love choices, right? So especially at older ages, as we get older, it’s even important to respect autonomy more than advice. So I would just move from advice to autonomy. That’s my first advice, ironically. So I would put options in front of her. Maybe also being stage aware. So say for example, what Ishna was mentioning, this is very sensitive about, especially people who are getting older, that being stage aware.
Am I in the pre contemplation mode? Hey son, you want the best for me, but I just don’t want to change. I just love the way I have my food. I love the way I sleep or my everything I love about. Which means I’m in a pre contemplation state, which means back off. Please don’t give me any advice. If a certain person knows about the habit, but is confused, that’s contemplation that Ashna was mentioning about. That’s when they want to know about pros and cons. Say for example, let’s establish that gluten hurts autoimmune, sugar hurts autoimmune, lack of sleep hurts autoimmune, diseases or cause autoimmune of cause a flare up, lack of sleep, too much stress. So that’s a given that one can Google, like five or six things which can help autoimmune.
To me, that’s 10% of the problem. The remaining 90% is behavior. Do I want to listen to you? Do I want to quit sugar? Do I want to quit gluten? Especially when I’m eating because I have my life experiences. Why should I listen to you? Or especially a person you spoke with in a podcast, right? Your mom is not gonna listen. I’m not generalizing, but I would say let’s be stage aware and compassionate and autonomy if we compare, put these three together. And I would just give her options. If she’s in the pre-contemplation stage, maybe a podcast would help. Where she’s hey, what we have eaten sugar all through our lives.
And you’re telling me the sugar hurts or causes flare up. I’m not going to listen to it. Then a general podcast can help. You don’t make a judgment. You don’t make any advice. And she listens and she absorbs maybe things as soon as your advice that’s right in reflection, then she might push back. The second is contemplation. But I don’t know. Yeah, I think I want to quit sugar, but I’m not ready. So then you make a pros and cons table. Hey, why do you want to have sugar? Is it maybe a symbol of joy for you? Or if you quit sugar, then you can be pain free. So then the pros and cons will help her move. Or maybe any one move.
The third is preparation, by the time you are in preparation, then there’s lots of information on Google. The family needs to be sensitive in the first two stages, where the person is in denial can actually can rebel if we give them advice. I certainly would because autonomy is a human need. So long story short is let’s be stage sensitive where the person is with respect to change.
Does the person even want to change? That’s first. Second is, of course, declutter information, no disease, no lifestyle disease as some X factor coming in. It’s all in lifestyle, exercise, attitude, nutrition, stress management, communication. It’s everything is in there. No junk, no processed foods, no everything. And then being stage aware and being compassionate and give them choices.
AD :
So actually, thank you for that. That’s very helpful. Now, one of the kind of,I guess, options, but it’s a more procedural option that you provide during your coaching your program offers or includes both group and one on one. Sessions, the group being more support, the one on one being more personalized. Out of curiosity, why do you integrate both methods? And what do you see as the benefits for a client as they try to manage their own burnout?
The Power Of Cohorts In Facilitating Change & Building Habits [15:33]
SA :
Such a good question. I started with one on ones. I thought one on ones would help people, but very soon I was humbled. And when I saw that when people come together. Most of it is not about me telling them what to do. It’s about them relating with other people and thinking, hey, I’m not the only one. That feeling of I am not the only one is huge when it comes to habit building. So information I can give space, I can give. I can go create the coaching space with them when I’m talking to them, listening to them.
We are coming up with strategies, but I just cannot create camaraderie for them, for that group has to be there. That makes it very hard because I wait and wait till we form a cohort, which I think can help each one of them super sensitive about. Would it help all of them or not? How big a cohort should be?
If the cohort is too big, then they don’t connect. Then they miss the session and they wouldn’t even know. But if the cohort is too small, then the relatedness is low. So there’s a sweet spot of say 10 ish people. I don’t go above 14, don’t go below six. Sometimes as a coach, you have this ego where you think you are helping people.
But cohorts is such a beautiful thing to let you ground yourself and be like, hey, people are helping each other or maybe themselves. You are just facilitating. So to answer your question, I think to help people change or move them from pre contemplation preparation stages of change, it’s very important that they have support at the same time, a place where they can talk through their emotions, structure them well and take action.
So both are necessary. I don’t think I can coach one or the other way. So at least I don’t know as yet.
AD :
It’s a nice integration of the two and certainly if I’m trying to rewrite a narrative in my own head, and I’m trying to then take different behavioral steps for my wellbeing and health, it would be a very hard journey to do either alone or just through a one on one.
NM :What do you believe sets this wellness coaching apart from others in the industry?
The Unique Approach Of Ashna’s Wellness Program [17:36]
AS :
That’s a good one. I’m a marketer. So usually I love that question. I love pitching why I’m different. This is a sensitive space and I’m going to take a step back. So this is my favorite question. I’ll take time because like I said, to each their own, there are a lot of things out there. Like with anyone’s listening, if you have an intuition that something could work for you, go ahead and try that, whatever that is. Because you don’t know what helps you.
That said, and then I come into what probably resonated for me. And we’ve done tons of customer research calls. 30 minute line calls. So many of them with past lines and what I’ve seen worked out for them. And that begins with the unlearning, the hard things. Autonomy. Schooling teaches us all to be instruction-led. Can you give me a prescription manual? This is what I’ll follow. That falls very quickly.
Autonomy is one of the hardest things to learn. To be honest, coming back again and again, six months, like working with a coach and then not giving you an answer, it’s sometimes pretty annoying. I’m like, why are you not telling me the answer? We get that question a lot, but over time, it really changes your health.
So autonomy is truly the basis of what we’re doing. Non-prescriptive. And, you know, there’s another beauty to it. What that means is we don’t want you with us forever. Please come take what you need and leave. There might be other things in other phases of life that you need next and so this might not be for you forever.
You evolve in what you need. That, for someone who’s been to a lot of places, that kind of subtlety sometimes sadly is not found everywhere. The other thing I think coming to the program itself, one of the few programs you’ll find in the world. And I can genuinely say that with my research, which combines wellbeing and habit science with communication, very few programs integrate both of those.
To be honest, sometimes you say communication and like I was talking about Aram’s lecture, which we think is vocabulary. What am I saying? But it’s more clarity. It’s more inner clarity. It’s really taking away that desperation and understanding. Okay. If I show up as myself, maybe there is a way in the world for me, but for that understanding what showing up as myself.
So I would say that we’ve one of the only few programs I’ve seen that kind of integrates and intersects both of them. And that’s beautiful. Thirdly, I think as much as we can trying to stay science backed and systems integrated because the audience is also engineers, techies. It’s obviously open to all, but what we’ve seen is that a lot of that first principles thinking is something that all of them relate to, which is how can I break this down in smaller modules and genuinely understand, okay, science is something all of us relate to.
It’s the logic, but it’s the head and the heart, both. So I don’t know how, if I answer that question but yes, those are a few things that have worked well for us community often being the heart of it, but there’s definitely a lot of communities that said, like I said, even though I want to say this is the best, I would say you need different things in different parts of your life.
They serve you well.
NM :
Great answer.
AD :
This has been a wonderful conversation to end our year on. And so as we prepare to conclude the podcast and as we get ready to go through, the transition of a new year and new start, what final thought would you leave with our listeners? Maybe to help them on their own journey of wellbeing going into 2025.
The Importance Of Communication In Mental Health [20:50]
AS :
Thank you first. Thank you for inviting us. This was so deep, so meaningful, and I’m so glad we got a chance to do this. Honestly, it’s just a conversation that’s hard for me. I think one of the things that has slowly started becoming important to me, and I wish more people in the world did that, communicate.
Talk about these things that are in your head that are so invisible, so intangible that, it almost feels invalid sometimes. It almost feels like this is not happening because physical ailments are so much easier to recognize that. I would say if you’re feeling something, communicate, share. There are a lot of other people out there in the world who feel the same way.
And I wish there was more dialogue around mental health, not labeling it. The word could be different, but I wish there was much more dialogue around that this year. I think showing up with my authentic vocabulary and recognizing that, okay, wow, people in the world relate to that’s just beautiful. And I, that’s something that I would just say.
AD :
And Sakshi?
SA :
Thank you for that question. First, thank you, Ashna. This was a very well put what you just said. Ask for help, communicate. That’s so powerful. And I hope at least going into the new year, there’s not being shy about asking for help, but we do accept that’s also okay.
Having said that, if you were to ask me about what I would summarize or say before the new year, I would say first is before, if you make resolutions by all means, but just don’t be rigid about them or beat yourself up. If you can’t stick to them. That’ll make it harder to form a habit. The second thing as Ashna was speaking about mental health, one thing came to my mind is this cycle between mental and physical health, where a little bit of exercise can help you be mentally well, and a little bit of calm can help you exercise well.
So this cycle, if you can remember and put a little bit of effort, I know it’s hard to maybe get up every day and exercise or meditate, et cetera, but do something for your body so that it feels at home. And then you can take care of your mind and then vice versa. So they are hand in hand is a good phrase to use.
So they work hand in hand, mental and physical health. So I always thought that I can talk myself out of a situation or I can explain myself or talk to people and come out of a situation that’s important, but at the same time, 20 minutes walk in nature can do to you. And be huge. So with new year, let’s put both of them together and not in silos.
Inclusivity is a word, but let’s include both brain and mind and mental health and behavioral health and therapists and coaches, whoever it takes. To give you support, please reach out. It’s all one with that. I think I would just like to say, I can not take my mind off your mom. So lots of wishes to her also. I hope she feels great.
AD :
Thank you. You’ve provided some wonderful things for all of us. Certainly share with her, but also for myself, I just last piece around both the cycle between the mental and the physical in managing that. Taking that on, that’s going to be, that’ll be one of my not so rigid resolutions for 2025.
And then, Ashna, going back, you are the impetus for this dialogue, the conversation we’re having today. So you have set the example for all of us to have more conversation about this and to realize that these feelings of burnout and being less than our own best. I’m not the only one we’re not by ourselves in this and there are tools.
There are others who can provide support. There are things we can do practices we can adopt. So one last, thank you both for joining us and for your insights. Thanks for taking the time this morning.
SA :
Thank you so much. It was so heartleft.
NM :
Well, that is it for us on today’s podcast. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the NEGOTIATEx podcast and happy new year.
