Nolan Martin :
Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on the Negotiate X Podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Jon Hughes. If you haven’t already checked out Part A of the show, be sure to do that first. Let’s jump into the conversation with Jon.
Aram Donigian :
Jon, as you talk about competitive pressure balanced with relational approaches. And this idea of, to manage well for risk and uncertainty. Those things apply within the military and other governmental functions as well, beyond the private companies that you work with. And I’m curious if you could talk to a moment, especially since that’s you and I, working with the Navy Seals about 10 years ago or so was the first time we had an opportunity to work together, which was so much fun.
What do you see as the biggest differences between the private organizations you work with and military and other government organizations? Or maybe there’s some surprising similarities when they, as they approach negotiation, influence, persuasion?
How Human Dynamics & High Stakes Shape Negotiations Across Business & Military Domains [00:54]
Jonathan Hughes :
At one level, I would say the biggest difference, obviously, but to say it is the stakes in a lot of these negotiations. So in the business world we are generally not dealing, as much as there is conflict, it’s not kinetic.
Now the, I do work, I’ve worked in biopharma, for example and healthcare as an industry where, you know I’m not in an emergency operating room, so I’m not on the front line of life and death, but you do you talk to biopharmaceutical companies and hospital systems and IDNs and those are companies that are directly, what they’re doing does have life and day death stakes in terms of delivering new therapies to patients and enabling a hospital system to provide the highest level of care, reduce medical error rates.
But still, and as a business consultant, right? I’m multiple steps removed from that, right? But dealing as we have with Naval Special Warfare, Navy Seals, other conventional and special forces in the military, right? These are people who a lot of their negotiations and influence situations are right.
What’s at stake there is immediately avoiding kinetic conflict, which sometimes things are resolved kinetically, it’s always I would say the highest cost and last resort. And people who live in that world, day to day, who are on the front line protecting our country in those roles.
It is, the stakes are different. The pressures, I think, are different than in the business world, that’s the big difference. The similarities though, are ultimately whether it is the military, whether it is NGOs or government or private sector business, a lot of this comes down to dealing with people.
And the dynamics of people are very similar. Government, business and military, like they’re all like, they’re units of people that all organize themselves into forms of bureaucracy. And navigating inside an organization, whether it’s the Army or the Navy or State Department or an embassy or a corporation. There’s a lot of the same dynamics influencing up, down, across and with other, other external parties. And, some of our work with the seals, like a lot of their negotiation influence situations, are not necessarily kinetic. It’s with partner forces, it’s with other parts of the US government apparatus.
And there are a lot of similarities there. And the basic understand the other side. And it’s interesting in a military, even if it’s the others, the counterparty there that you’re trying to influence or negotiate with some way may not share your values in a more profound way than, like within the US or even the global business environment. Like you run into less of that, like fundamentally different values with an adversary, and yet still there may be a need and an opportunity to negotiate and influence, past that, work through that. So I do think as much of the, hopefully I’ve learned a little bit of humility along the way.
Again, through a lot of failures, military, civilian government business are very different. Even from one company to another, one unit to another, every negotiation influenced situation is a little bit different, right? And they’re like, some of the fundamental principles of conflict management, negotiation and human behavior apply regardless of the domain because it’s still people involved trying to get things done, trying to maybe serve a higher purpose, but also trying to protect themselves and those closest to them.
And doing that in trying circumstances with a lot of disagreement and conflict, high stakes that even if it’s not life and death. Feel very personal and even existential to people whose jobs are at stake or who have responsibility for hundreds of thousands of employees. If I get the decision right, our company thrives. If I don’t and I get it wrong, right? All these people who are depending for their livelihood on me and my company, their jobs are at risk. So that’s its own kind of pressure and it’s real.
NM :
Continuing down this path of conflict management. You know, companies are pods of people, we’re dealing with people. What advice would you have for me if I’m facing a powerful supplier, difficult customer? What frameworks or tools do you teach? Could you teach me in reframing the negotiation approach or protecting long-term value?
Leveraging Empathy, Legitimacy & Fairness To Shift The Balance In Negotiations [05:15]
JH :
Yeah, a couple things. And again, if you’re counterparty, customer, supplier, alliance partner, some other group in a different context. If they are more powerful, a couple things. One is try to understand them and their goals as well as possible because maybe there is something outside the scope of our current negotiation or issue, some other goal need interest that they have. That’s not part of our current interaction. But once I understand, oh, they also care about this, then I start to say is there some way I could help them with that other goal?
And if I did offer up. Some value, some support, some way to help them there. Could I then leverage that back, to get some consideration within the current negotiation, or conflict where I feel like I have no power. So that would be one thing, is just try to understand them, their motivations and needs as much as possible.
Two is typically when I look at a counterparty and I think they have a lot more power than I do. The paradigm behind that or around that is I need them a lot more than they need me and therefore they’ve got more power. And, but often that starts with, I need to get an agreement with them.
I have to get their approval, I have to close this deal with them. And if not it’s terrible for me. So often in my experience if I set that aside and say, okay, like it would be terrible for me not to get an agreement with the other side, but let me just imagine for a moment from their perspective, how bad is it if they don’t get a deal with me?
And a lot of times it turns out, that’d be really bad for them too. So the fact that I am incredibly dependent on them doesn’t mean that they’re not also, maybe not completely as but very dependent on me. And again, this is classic with any kind of stress, right? With the human mind, we tend to get tunnel vision.
So like I’ve gotta have an agreement with them and that’s my sole focus, I gotta take a step back and say how much do they need an agreement with me? Alright, now it starts to look a little bit more balanced, right? I’m not powerless. And again, the other thing would be to rethink what power is.
It’s not just. I can, like who can hurt, who most, which is a typical way to think about power, but all these other forms of power and and I talked a little again about is there some other thing I can help them with? That’s a form of power, right? It’s not that I can hurt them or impose my will upon them, it’s that I can offer something of value that may be attractive to them.
One of my personal favorite forms of power that’s often overlooked because again, it’s not coercive, which is what people typically think of power as the ability to impose one’s will on another. But again, coming out of getting Ds and the kind of principled negotiation literature. The power of legitimacy, which arises from the fact, as I’ve come to think about it, people, human beings are social animals and not just social, but u social or hyper social.
What does that mean? One thing is none of us want to be taken advantage of or mistreated. And I’ve seen over the decades, so many business deals unraveled that from a business or financial perspective, made sense. One side or the other side came to believe that the other side is trying to take advantage of me, and all of a sudden people will walk away or blow up deals that if it was just about money, they do it.
But that drive to be fairly treated is incredibly deep rooted. It’s incredibly powerful. The flip side though, is where the power of legitimacy comes into play. Not only do we all as human beings care deeply about being fairly treated. We also want to be seen by those around us because we’re social animals as reasonable and fair dealing.
So I have been in negotiations including nine and ten figures like commercial negotiations where the other side of the client that I was working with made a demand that seemed completely unfair and unreasonable. And I’m sitting with my client and our teams are sitting there. We’re like, what do we do?
Because we have to get this deal and they’re making an unreasonable demand. We have no power, and it, and it’s terrible because we can’t possibly agree to that. It’s unreasonable, but we can’t say no because we have to have a deal with them. And if they’re making the demand. And so you can’t say yes, you can’t say no. What do you do? One thing is, and the classic thing that people will say is. We could go back and make a counter offer, right? We could make a concession and we could get into this bargaining, haggling kind of thing. But there’s another thing you could do. You can go back and say, hey, we’re not saying yes or no.
We do wanna let you know. That would be very hard. Like right now, it feels impossible for us to say yes to that. But we’re not saying no. We just wanna understand why, right? You’re asking for a huge upfront payment. You’re asking for us to have unlimited liability, whatever it is. Help us understand a little bit more, not only why you’re asking for that ’cause the simple reason is, yeah, that’d be better for you. But why do you think that is fair and reasonable?
And the concern always in going is they’re gonna say they don’t care or refuse it. It’s because we want that and that’s what we want. That’s it. Once people get beyond the age of two as a general rule they learn that’s not enough. Prior to two, it’s, yeah, I want it because I want it. Full stop. But we get socialized right into being community meetings and we learn that we need to explain why and justify ourselves to others. Now, we might do that in like we might shade the truth. We might do it in very self-interested ways. But when we ask people, why do you think that’s fair and reasonable, they will almost always give an answer.
And now we have cracked open the door to a conversation that is not just about power and coercion. It is about what is fair and what is reasonable. And they come back and they say we are a bigger company, so you should bear all the risk. And we say, okay, that’s interesting. But we actually look at this almost in the opposite way.
You’re a bigger company, so you have the financial resources to actually take on more risks. And we’re a small customer supplier, partner to you. Like we can’t really afford that risk. It could put us out of business. So like again, it’s just a question as we try to negotiate an agreement that’s good for both sides, do you really wanna put that much risk on us that might drive us out of business?
Because what we want, we wanna be a long-term partner to you, can’t do that if we’re going out of business. That again, it’s, what’s nice about that is it’s not confrontational. It’s not adversarial. If the other side does have a lot of power, I don’t wanna get into a battle over, based on coercive power, I’m gonna lose that.
If I can shift the ground to what’s fair, what’s reasonable, and put what I would say is a constructive form, a positive form of pressure on the other side to live up to ideals that almost everyone has, which is, yes, I am a fair and I’m a reasonable person. Let me use that kind of pressure to create power for myself in a negotiation otherwise I wouldn’t have it.
AD :
Yeah, Jon, I spend so much time with students talking, trying to broaden the view of what is power. You just did that so nicely, right? That power can come through relationships. They come through understanding, asking why come through fairness. Earlier you were talking about power, curiosity, and creativity, a source of power too.
I’m curious because the one pushback that I get is and it’s very context specific, it’s with when I’m trying to influence upward and it’s a senior leader and I believe this is something you have written on too. I’m gonna frame the question in. You are a senior leader within your organization. How do you want people to approach you, who are junior to you in an influential way? What does that look like?
Challenge Up, Listen Down: Cultivating Humility & Voice In Leadership [12:54]
JH :
What I want people to do, they may not always feel comfortable doing, and that’s partly because of me, but I’m always trying. I want people, and I think most leaders will say this. But sometimes when you get what you say you want, you don’t always react like you do want, like I want people to challenge me. I want people to disagree with me, right? I don’t need everyone. And there are situations where I have a lot more experience and there may be time pressure. I’m like, here’s what I think we need to do and please go do it. And you can’t get through, like everything can’t be a constant negotiation, right? Sometimes I just gotta say, hey let’s do this. Like, I’ve done this. [inaudible]
AD :
Yeah, sometimes you gotta take that hill.
JH :
Take the hill
AD :
I get we could take it 20 different ways. Go do it.
JH :
Exactly. And when there’s not time pressure, and the more important the issue is I want, I try to be the kind of leader that where it’s okay, and I wanna recognize and appreciate and reward people who are willing to say, wait a second, what about this? Here’s a different idea. What do you think about that? And one of the ways that I think, coaching people to do it with me or with other leaders, it’s good to bring, again, I think back in my early career and what I probably didn’t do as well as I should have, I don’t lack for ideas, but there’s a little bit of humility goes a long way, right?
If you’re a junior person, you’re trying to manage up. You know, sometimes people will come to me and say, hey you didn’t think of this. We should do that. I’m like, you know what? Give me a little bit of credit. I actually think that’s a fine idea, but to think that to assume that I never thought of that is a little bit of a stretch. No, but just the general stance of going in and saying by way of, preparatory acknowledgement.
You’ve probably thought of this and there’s a bunch of stuff I don’t know, but I have this idea and I just wanna raise it. So that kind of helps. Again, there, there is a tendency, and you see it in large bureaucratic organizations too, of, down in the rank and file there’s often a tendency and it, there’s reasons for it to think that those at senior levels are like head office, right?
Those people are so far removed from the reality in the market place that are on the ground that we develop this, like they’re out of touch and you can get in an organization, you can get a lower level, some cynicism about leadership. And that’s really destructive. And once you have that mindset, then if you try to raise stuff to senior that. Like if I think my leaders are idiots or just disconnected like that is gonna leak through, and then I’m not gonna be heard well. As opposed to, again, being humble, being curious, and saying the reality is those folks on the ground like day-to-day in operating roles, you know, out with customers, out with suppliers doing the coding for the new IT system.
Those people know things that, like those of us at more senior levels, they see the trees, right? They see a lot of detail that we don’t need. We’ve got to have open doors as leaders to have challenge, to have input, to have feedback from people and say, wait a second, maybe you see this, but maybe you don’t ’cause you’re 50,000 feet and we’re at 10 feet, right? And you see different things there. And then part of the humility comes into like if you’re down like on the forest floor and you see the trees, it is very hard to see the forest.
And that’s for organizational effectiveness and health, that’s what you want, is a culture where people at all different levels recognize. None of us have a soul monopoly on the truth. It’s almost impossible to see things at the 50,000 foot level and at the ground level simultaneously. So we gotta have a way to talk to one another to raise issues and input up and down in a way that acknowledges, right? The limitations, the finitude of each of our perspectives on the world and bring the high-level strategic view and the long-term view with the immediate and on the ground view together.
So I think, if you think in that way, you’re generally gonna look more effective taking stuff up the chain to leadership.
AD :
Now, Jon, beyond the up the chain, which is a challenge. We also, let me just ask you the question. Is it, do you find it more difficult to align internal parties or external customers and..
JH :
Yeah, I mean that’s there so.
AD :
That was so leading. Let me. Let’s scrap and ask that.
JH :
It’s universally, throughout my career. Everyone, whether you’re in procurement, corporate development, doing joint ventures, M&A, sales account management, like whatever the role is. Whenever I’ve asked people like, are your negotiation influence challenges, are they harder externally or internally? It’s always internal.
AD :
Okay, so why is, yeah, why is that? And then what’s your advice? Yeah.
Why Internal Collaboration Feels Harder: The Trap Of Unrealistic Expectations [17:52]
JH :
Again, on the face, it’s puzzling because inside our organization, even though we’re different departments and business units and offices, so yeah, we’re, but we’re still part of one company, or we’re still part of one unit or one department in an agency. Like why is that harder? I think some of it as in so much in life is a function of expectations. So like just for fun, I will analogize to movies. Some of the movies I’ve enjoyed most have been because I had no expectation whatever. I went in the movie, I was like, this is a great movie. Some of the movies I’ve been more disappointed in, it’s because I’ve heard like over hyped, it’s so long and it probably was a great movie, but my expectations had been raised so high.
I once saw the movie, I was like. Yeah, this is pretty good. But, and I think there is something analogous that within our company, we have an unrealistic expectation of our colleagues inside the same organization. That we’re all one group, we’re all one team. And so there shouldn’t be like friction and disagreement and conflict, and that unrealistic expectation gets dashed pretty quickly.
And then like we get really frustrated when we’re out with external partners. We’re like, yeah, of course. They’ve got their own goals, their own priorities, and our expectations. We expect some of that, and then we’re not as rattled by it when it happens. I think that’s a piece of it. So I’ll stop there, but I’m kind of curious, since I did hear a little bit of the subtext hypothesis in your que, maybe we can all ex, like it continues to puzzle me sometimes that it’s not like often or it’s so universal.
And it’s such a strong view from people that yeah, the internal is harder than the external. I continue to was like, why is it so much that way? It’s really, it’s fascinating.
AD :
Well, I love your answer. If I had to put a kind of tagline, I think I’d use it, which is unrealistic expectations. That then leads to things like, then I just don’t prepare, because of course you’re gonna..
JH :
Oh, that’s another.
AD :
Right?
JH :
Oh, that’s huge and related, right? We think it shouldn’t be too hard, so we prepare less. And that lack of preparation makes it much harder than when we, yeah. That’s, yeah.
AD :
Yeah, and you know, we always talk about mindset and assumptions. I think embedded within this unrealistic expectation are a lot of assumptions that, again, tied to lack of preparation. I never test. And so that’s, that, that has all the makings for a bad surprise and yeah, a lot of resistance.
NM :
Jon, you spent a considerable amount of time educating lawyers. Future military leaders and top business students, have those experiences shaped how you think about leadership and resilience in your work today?
Teaching To Learn: The Unexpected Rewards Of Sharing Experience [20:29]
JH :
Yes, and it, in a few ways, and I’ll say, every time and I’ve probably done less of it than I would like to do or might do at some future point in time of teaching. But for those who have done it, they’ll know. And for those in different leadership roles who have not had an opportunity to teach students or in their career learners, again, military, government, private sector. There are few things more rewarding than teaching.
And I am, like, I’m always struck again, whether it’s lawyers, believe it or not, or cadets, West Point or newer military leaders or business leaders, passion for learning and the openness and appreciation to learn. And I, unfortunately maybe, as many of us get older and more experienced. Sometimes I think we lose that openness and curiosity and passion for learning and so I always leave those experiences re-energized about how powerful that desire to learn is. And, you know, again it’s a little bit hacked need maybe, but it is really true when you go in as a teacher or instructor to try to impart some experiences and wisdom to people who are there to learn.
You always end up learning a lot, right? I mean, do, and it comes out of people asking really good questions, and sometimes you’ve heard the question before. There’s always a question like, no one’s ever asked that before or not quite in that way. I’m like, oh, like that starts the gears turning and start thinking and then, often you’ll have a little bit of debate back and forth and discussion. So those are a couple ways in which, and I love those teaching opportunities. Guest lecture up at Tucker Dartmouth. Sometime, Aram, we haven’t done that together for a while.
Both to hopefully give a little bit back but just selfishly for the energy and the personal learning as well.
AD :
Oh, I’d love to have you. That was the easiest negotiation ever. So we’ll have, let’s figure that out. I was actually already thinking about how we make something happen in the fall, Jon, so that would be great.
You are so generous with your time and I just got one last question, but I do wanted to say thanks for all that you do in so many different spaces. Having known you for a decade now and seeing the work you do for the military and other places you truly are a passionate learner and teacher.
And I think that shows up. You’ve shared a lot of advice today. If you had one final piece that, that somehow might be different from everything, all the other nuggets for our listeners on how they might transform, how they negotiate, persuade, influence, and collaborate, what would it be?
Behind Aggression Lies Fear: Lowering The Temperature To Unlock Resolution [23:13]
JH :
So that’s a great question. And like all great questions, makes you think. So I don’t have an immediate off the cuff answer. I’ll buy time by thanking you both for this opportunity which been a lot of fun. And yeah. Very kind and generous comments. Aram, very generous, I appreciate it.
This is probably a paraphrase a little bit of some of the stuff that I’ve said before may not be completely new, but the power of, so we’ve talked about empathy and that’s a, I think a common piece of advice. But to recognize that so often when we are in a conflict or a negotiation, and again, this cuts across, business, military, like government, all sorts of, more often than not, when we are encountering very aggressive or what seems to be very aggressive behavior from the other side.
Vastly, not always, but vastly more often than not in my experience, that aggression has its roots in fear. And it’s kind of counterintuitive. And again, when someone is attacking me and being aggressive it’s like the first natural human reaction is defense and maybe attack back.
It is not to say, wait a second, like if the other side is really as powerful as they say. Think about when you’ve really engaged in negotiations with someone who had all. Like, those people are generally pretty chill. It is like I don’t necessarily need the deal with you. I’ll talk to you. I have it all. Those people, they’re not aggressive ’cause they don’t need to be.
When people are really aggressive it’s generally comes from deep seated insecurity and fear. And if I can recognize that then like the overwhelmingly effective strategy is not to fight fire with fire and blow the whole thing up. It is, how can I reduce the level of fear and anxiety that person is experiencing because as long as they are experiencing that kind of fear-based amygdala hijacking, right, response, people can’t like right in the grip of fear and anxiety, none of us can be rational and when we have high stake negotiations, we need to take the temperature down. And any of this was part of our HBR negotiation Extreme negotiation article like years ago, Aram. You gotta have the wherewithal to take the temperature down, which starts by helping them become less fearful.
But again it’s so counterintuitive that when we’re being attacked, that’s often what’s driving it on the other side. And if we recognize that we can help make it safer, like less fearful for them, and again, that’s not gonna make it easier to solve the problem, but it’s probably the only way to start charting a path to a favorable resolution.
AD :
Well, Jon, thank you. Thank you for that and thank you for your time today. Really appreciate it.
JH :
Thank you both.
NM :
Well, that’s it for us on today’s podcast. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the Negotiate X Podcast if you haven’t already. And we’ll see you in the next episode.
