Nolan Martin :
Hello, welcome to The NEGOTIATEx Podcast. My name’s Nolan Martin. Joining me today, Aram Donigian. Aram, do you want to kick it off for today?
Aram Donigian :
I will, Nolan, thank you so much. Folks, today we’re joined by Chris Wong, father of two, podcast host, and business owner who lives outside Boston, Massachusetts.
He has worked in the nonprofit and healthcare sector for more than 15 years. Chris began his career working as a licensed therapist and transitioned into learning and development. He also built a leadership and organizational department from the ground up, including formal mentorship and leadership development programs, and led organizational projects.
Chris founded Leadership Potential where he partners with new nonprofit executives to navigate chaotic transitions and create high-performing cultures to get things done. This involves working with nonprofit leaders around executing strategic plans, as well as addressing challenges such as conflict resolution, culture enhancement, board engagement, building influence, and fostering inclusive work environments.
Chris serves on the board of a foundation and the board of a nonprofit and also co-hosts the podcast The Art and Science of Difficult Conversations, where he helps people master difficult conversations in all domains of their lives. Chris, thanks so much for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx podcast.
Chris Wong :
Thanks for having me. It’s an honor for me to be here.
AD :
Well, Chris, your work spans executive coaching, therapy, nonprofit strategy. What initially drew you to the intersection of leadership development and difficult conversations?
Chris Wong’s Journey Into Leadership & Conversations That Matter [01:27]
CW :
I originally got started as a licensed therapist, so that’s where I got my, just that comfort in doing difficult conversations. But I got burned out.
And so I had to transition to learning and development because I still wanted to be in the space. I still wanted to help people transform and grow in whatever way possible. And if anybody listening is a learning development professional, one of the things that haunts us forever is how do we get people to keep learning outside of these training events.
And my research just took me to understanding that leadership was really where I was at. Because the leaders are the people with the staff every day, coaching, mentoring, setting, policy, setting culture. And so that’s what led me to start doing more leadership development work.
And I was surprised I didn’t realize it ’cause when I first got into it, I was just hoping to build skill sets. I didn’t realize how much of it was also, they have to have difficult conversations in all aspects with their employees up, across, outside if they’re working with external vendors or external sources.
I didn’t, I was surprised ’cause I thought it was like a whole new skill set that like would be out of reach for me ’cause I wasn’t doing that particular work. But the more I learned about it, the more I dove into it and was training and coaching others, I was like, “Oh, I know all this stuff already. I just now have to adapt it to new language to help everybody.” And it just took off from there.
AD :
I love the focus on leadership. And Nolan and I do corporate trainings as well. I always wonder how much of this will stick, how much will get applied going forward. Always a challenge.
You mentioned your own like burnout, as you coach people today, how much burnout do you see out there amongst the people that you’re engaged with?
Leadership Coach Chris Wong Unpacks The Burnout He Witnesses [03:01]
CW :
I think I see it a lot still. I think everybody sees it. That’s why there’s a lot of burnout coaches or mindfulness coaches out there. I still do therapy part-time and in my private practice, and I still see it. People are burned out, they’re stressed, they’re anxious, they’re not sleeping well.
So all aspects, I still see it everywhere. I think, ’cause people are just, especially after Covid, people are just pushing themselves to the brink. We haven’t really recovered, but we’re still having to push forward, right? Like especially if you had kids, you’re still doing the work, you’re still managing all these things, you’re still holding a huge a emotional load and a cognitive load. And you still gotta push forward somehow. So, a lot of it is how do you find your passion.
AD :
Yeah. And I have to think that impacts…you know, we’re gonna get into difficult conversations…I gotta think that impacts the way in which we engage with each other.
CW :
Yeah, people are stressed. I think people are, just have less of a patience to sit through that difficult conversation.
I think when a lot of people come to my trainings or I do webinars or talk to people, they’re always looking for like, they don’t say it this way, but, “What are the magical phrases I need to say to get people to do what I want them to do?” And it doesn’t work like that. There’s no magical set of phrases that’ll make people suddenly happy to get a warning or get fired.
AD :
Well, darn. Why did we have you on then, Chris? I thought you were gonna give us some magic tricks.
CW :
Yeah, it’s just, a lot of it is really just, people are stressed already going into it. So like their mindset is, I just need to get through this. And so, they, they try to avoid it or they do it incorrectly going into it.
NM :
Well, Chris, the statistic that 57% of people would do almost anything to avoid a difficult conversation is striking. What do you think drives this avoidance?
The Psychology Behind Avoiding Difficult Conversations [04:27]
CW :
I always teach, and there’s a few different things that always come up.
It’s number one, they’re invested in the outcome and the relationship. So, they want an outcome specifically that they want, but also they wanna do it in a way that maintains a positive working relationship. You know, they don’t wanna be best friends with them, but they want to at least have a healthy working relationship.
The second thing is they’re just that idea of fight, flight, or freeze. You know, we’re all human. We have that. If we see it as a threat, we’re gonna be in that fight, flight, or freeze. And the hard part about it is, it’s not just us, but the other person in the conversation is also experiencing it.
So, when we think about people who are yelling at us or lying or not responding or just shutting down, it’s just that fight, flight, or freeze response. They just don’t know how to respond and they’re just reacting emotionally instinctively. So, it’s really about how do you manage yourself and then manage somebody else’s fight, flight, or freeze response.
And the third thing is that they just dunno what to say. They might be super comfortable with it. They might know exactly, have all the confidence in the world. They might be super emotionally intelligent and know how to manage themselves than the other person. They might just not know the words to say that I can move the conversation forward or get closer to the outcome that they’re looking for as though they feel stuck.
And so it could be any of all three of those or any combination of those three.
NM :
Yeah. I like the fight, flight, or freeze and trying to manage someone else’s, you do, you typically don’t think of the other person, you typically just think of yourself. So that’s interesting, yeah.
AD :
You emphasize that in managing difficult conversations when this is done well, we can actually transform stress into a stronger relationship. Can you share a moment where you actually witnessed this transformation in action?
Tension To Trust: Real Stories Of Conversation-Driven Growth [06:01]
CW :
Yeah, I have two. I was thinking about this as, you know, when I was during Covid, I was the chair of a board and one of the members was just being unprofessional. And him and I will always disagree whether he was actually being unprofessional. But the reality is it was going against the way we, our code of conduct. And so I had to talk to him about it and he disagreed and we had lots of conversations, I said, and eventually he had to step down from the board.
But throughout the conversation, the more I dug into it, the more we disagreed. More it was clear that he was also just going through some stuff and he was able to share that he was also feeling in a dark place. He was starting to feel suicidal. And so that became a precedent. Like I wouldn’t have discovered that if I hadn’t have dug into the conversation, if I wasn’t willing to engage in that, he wouldn’t have shared with us.
And then there could’ve been, you know, safety concerns outside of even recognizing that. But the fact that he was able to share, we hadn’t talked about that kind of stuff before, but by being able to dig deep into it, I was able to get to a place where he trusted me with that information. So that’s one in this.
Another one was just recently. I was coaching this director who was having a lot of stress with this other chief of staff or this other person from another department that kept giving him lots of these tasks that weren’t given any context. So he would drop everything he was doing because it came from the COO.
He ended up pushing back a lot of his own tasks and not getting stuff done. And then he would do these tasks, but they, nothing would happen with it. Like he would get these reports or do these things. He ended up swearing in a meeting at her because he was so frustrated. And so I had to coach him through how do you fix this relationship and how do you have that conversation with her so that you’re able to work better?
And it was just one conversation and like it completely transformed the way they work together. ‘Cause he was able to then coach her to think about how do you manage up and coach your own manager. So like they had a good working relationship, but it got even better ’cause he was able to work with her and, and figure out how to work better and collaborate.
AD :
Yeah. What strikes me is that in both of those examples, as the communication improved…and I know we’re gonna get into skills in a moment…and the trust improves, it sounds like they start to solve like the problem that’s really underneath what was like on the surface.
Which suggests maybe we’re gonna deal with the substantive…you call kinda the outcome focus…we’re gonna be able to deal with it a little better, too, as we strengthen the relationship.
CW :
Absolutely. I think it’s, you know, in negotiation they call interest-based negotiation, right? The idea that you’re trying to feel underneath the surface.
And I always think about that in all of difficult conversations. There’s something going on underneath the surface. And the better you can identify it and bring it out into the open, the better you both can figure out what’s really blocking forward progress and then get to that outcome that you’re both looking for.
NM :
Absolutely. The interesting thing there is, you know, you had mentioned interest-based negotiations. It’s crazy to think about how having an interest-based negotiation discussion can mimic a difficult conversation or have the same kind of things that impact that conversation. So, that’s pretty interested how they’re both connected.
Difficult conversations happen at every level of an organization. Do the skills required to navigate them differ from frontline managers versus senior executives? If so, how? And if not, what are the critical skills we need to master?
Key Skills Every Leader Needs For Navigating Difficult Talks [09:03]
CW :
I think they do, and I think there’s always gonna be minor things depending on kind of like the level. I think the biggest, most clearest difference between any level is the power dynamic. I think that’s something that’s often missed in these kind of conversations.
It’s not just the positional power, right? Because like that makes a difference, right? If you’re the CEO talking to frontline supervisor, yes, there’s a huge power disparity there. And I would also argue there’s lots of other power dynamics at play under the surface things, right? Like, so like age, gender, cultural norms, all those things play a role.
So even if I’m CEO…If I’m like a, a wiz kid. And I’m like a 25-year-old CEO, but I’m talking to a frontline supervisor that’s been in the field for 40 years and he’s a white male. Even though I have a positional power, I’m gonna feel like that person has other power in the dynamic. And so my goal in anything is like thinking about how do I navigate that power difference.
How do I even the playing field as much as possible in a way that’s honoring and respecting, right? I’m not trying to disrespect anybody, but if it’s somebody that is lower power in any domain, how do I empower them so that they feel more equal part of the conversation?
And if they have more power in the conversation, whether by position or by other factors, how do I phrase the conversation so that I’m seen as an equal so that I’m seen on an equal playing field and being willing to push back or whatever it may be? So I think that’s the biggest thing, is how do I navigate that conversation so that we can equal the power dynamics a lot.
NM :
And let’s dig into that a little bit more. Like what tips do you have for people?
‘Cause it, I was a, a young lieutenant, so a platoon leader, and my partner is a platoon sergeant who has 15 more years experience than I do. And I’m coming in there and I have to have this dynamic. And so really interested in the tips that you have for doing this.
Power Dynamics In Tough Talks: Chris’ Practical Navigation Tips [10:51]
CW :
I would say if you are in a higher power, if you have more power in that dynamic or that relationship, starting off with thanking the other person for being in the conversation in the first place. That’s a huge equalizer. ‘Cause that’s empowering them, that it’s just a subtle hint that they have power to choose to be in that relationship or that conversation.
And then also asking permission. “Is it okay if we do this? Is it okay if we move on to the, in the conversation?” I always teach it in terms of like the, any difficult conversation has an agenda, not necessarily the content. But really just there’s an intro, there’s ground rules, then there’s the flow of the rest of the conversation.
The more you can ask permission between different agenda items, the more you’re empowering the other person to be part of the conversation. And so that’s ways you can empower them. If you are on the lower level, let’s say you’re a lower and you’re trying to reach up, you can still do those things. I think those things are still good.
And I think it’s also about how do you set ground rules as well. So if you set ground rules and say if things get heated, if things start getting outta control, I want us both to be able to say, “Let’s take a break or stop if need be.” Right? So the more you can set the ground rules at the beginning, that can also raise you.
And the more you can say “we” as opposed to “I did this, or you need to do this,” the more we can say “we”, the more you’re collaborating and putting yourself on an equal footing with that person. So I think those are big things I always teach ’cause I think they’re subtle ways to just change. To even the playing field and the dynamics.
NM :
Soliciting their buy-in just seems like it’s so critical and a key to success here. So, thank you.
AD :
And I just wanna point out that Chris, twice you started with how do I, as the person with more power or leadership, kind of put the empower the person, that’s junior or beneath me or whatever. I love that you did that. First, I think a lot of times we jumped to how do I equalize myself or put myself on equal power, somebody who’s senior to me.
I was reading my kids a quote the other day by John Quincy Adams, and it says, “If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, you are a leader.” And I feel like you just demonstrated that in spades, so thanks for that. I think we do have to start from a place of how do we empower and give others voice and give them that place to the table.
CW :
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s the leader’s job, right? How do we empower, how do we inspire, motivate?
AD :
You teach strategic empathy as a tool for handling difficult behaviors. What are the biggest misconceptions that people have about empathy in high-stress conversations?
Empathy Isn’t Soft: Chris Debunks The Common Misconceptions [13:13]
CW :
I think the question I get the most is, “How do I balance being empathetic or caring and then holding people accountable?”
And I think too many times people put them on opposite sides of the spectrum. Like you can’t be assertive or you can’t be holding people accountable if you’re empathetic. It’s really the same thing. I think that’s the biggest misconceptions that there are even opposites. Empathy doesn’t mean you’re letting people get away with things.
It doesn’t mean that you’re letting people walk all over you or you don’t set your own boundaries. Empathy just means that you understand other people’s emotions or worldview and understand why they might be doing that, right?
Like when I was doing therapy, the first time I was doing therapy, I was working with sex offending behaviors. I could certainly understand. A lot of them came from traumatized backgrounds, heavy developmental, and childhood trauma. I could certainly understand why they’re doing these kinds of things, right? It doesn’t mean it’s okay.
It doesn’t mean I’m gonna let them keep doing whatever they’re doing, right? We still have to move towards a better behavior, more towards a better code of conduct, and/or outcome, right? So empathy is just understanding and recognizing that there’s a lot of other factors at play.
So somebody who’s stressful or their performance is slacking, it means that you might understand. Oh, their performance is slacking because they got a lot of family stuff going on. They got a parent in hospice care, they had to take a detour, their kids’ childcare shut down, so now they have to find a new care situation. So now they’re juggling all these things. That’s great. And they still need to get work done. You’re still paying them to get work done, right?
So, how do you balance those things? How do you help them balance all these different things? And the more you can do that, the more you can be seen as caring, empathic, and then they’ll trust you. The person you’re talking to will trust you. Like, “Okay, I know that you got my best interests at heart. I know you’re not trying to cut me out. You’re just trying to help me out, so let’s work together.” So you’re getting that buy-in also.
AD :
As you’re talking, I’m wondering, do we need to be empathetic with ourselves, too?
And I guess what I’m thinking of Chris is, “Absolutely, I need to empathize with others. Can I do that if I don’t, if I’m not connected to my own self?” And I’m thinking of how incredibly difficult it is during an emotionally charged conversation to stay calm and when talking fight or flight or freeze, it’s not typically my initial response.
Does empathy play a role in the first step to regaining self-control when a discussion starts going off track?
Conflict Reset Strategy: Empathy As The First Step To Control [15:22]
CW :
Yeah, you make a great point. I think it’s about setting those boundaries and being aware of our own values and honoring our own values and boundaries.
You know, I, we interviewed somebody on our podcasts a few weeks ago about, and she does a lot around like mindset and boundaries, and she made a really good point that boundaries are for ourselves. They’re just our values that are what help keep us emotionally stable. They’re not about other people.
Other people are, those are barriers. Those are things that you don’t want them to do, but you can’t control that, right? You can’t say, you can’t control whether somebody’s gonna get angrier if they’ll say something that’s offensive to you. The best we can do is say, this is the boundary for myself. If somebody says something offensive, I need to cut it off. Because I need to take care of myself. And that’s caring.
You’re right, that’s empathy for ourselves, and that’s okay. And everybody’s boundaries are different, right? If I’m in a difficult conversation, somebody’s yelling at me, or they’re swearing at me, I know myself well enough that I’m gonna be okay. I don’t need to take a break because I know that I can manage that, and I’m not gonna get offended by that.
But other people do. They need to take that break and that’s okay. Everybody’s boundaries are different. That, that’s self-empathy you were talking about.
AD :
You gotta ask one on a follow on this. Just saw this recently, which talked about, sometimes when you establish boundaries, people take that as judgment on as a judge, you know? And, and, and the response is, “Who are you to judge me?” And it’s, I’m not judging. I’m establishing boundaries.
Any thoughts on this kind of as I establish boundaries so that I can show up the best version of myself in this conversation to prevent that from sounding to you as I’m judging some sort of, I don’t know, behavior or my interpretation of something from you?
Chris Wong Shares How To Set Boundaries With Self-Empathy [16:55]
CW :
I think, that’s part of it, how do you set that boundary, is being concrete. Just like I very much consider it similar to giving feedback. It’s, the more concrete you can be as opposed to assigning like a judgment or an assumption of why somebody’s doing something, the easier it is to set that boundary of.
If you’re yelling, if I’m yelling, if we’re yelling in this conversation, I wanna take a break, if that’s okay with you. I need to take a break. I want us to be able to calm. It’s not assigning any assumption of why that person might be yelling or why I might be yelling. It’s just this behavior is, I don’t like this behavior. And also just recognizing or making peace with the fact that you can’t control how people will receive things.
You know, you could say it in the most kind, thoughtful way. People are going through their own things. And it’s okay to recognize that and say, “Listen, I get it. It doesn’t sound great to you. This is just a boundary I need to set for myself.” So it’s making peace with that like people will feel how they feel and that’s okay.
NM :
I love that. Moving on to preparation here, Aram and I are big fans of preparation with our military background. And we know that you also emphasize preparation as a key to handling difficult conversations. Well, what are the three most critical things leaders should do before entering a potentially high-stress discussion?
Before The Storm: Top Three Prep Tips For High-Stress Talks [18:01]
CW :
They need to think about the outcome, number one. What is the goal they’re trying to achieve? And I, I think that’s probably the most misunderstood thing going into any difficult conversation.
‘Cause everybody, I think, conflates multiple goals into one big goal. And they also conflate venting as a goal, right? “I want to yell at you. I want to express my frustration.” That’s not a goal. Or, that is a goal, but that, you can’t then change somebody’s mind because of that, right?
I think clarity on that goal is, number one is, “I want them to behave so different way, or I want them to look at things a different way. I just wanna yell at you because I’m just frustrated at you.” Again, you can’t combine those goals right all the time, because I don’t know anybody that gets yelled at and says, you know what? You’re right. I need to change my mind about something.
AD :
It doesn’t even work with kids, does it, Chris?
CW :
Doesn’t work with kids. Right. So, you know, I think everybody sees all these gotcha moments on reels or shorts or TikTok about like these political conversations. And like, yeah, I guess they’re great. Like if you’re on their side, like it feels great, like in your brain, it just feels good to have that gotcha moment, like I got one over on you.
But is that really gonna change their minds? No, not at all. If you wanna change their mind, that influence, that persuasion, that takes a different conversation of, “Let’s explore, let’s sit down and think about this, and talk through it.” So, number one is that is the goal.
Number two is thinking about your mindset going into it. What are you thinking about going into the conversation? Because in therapy there’s a philosophy of cognitive behavioral therapy of our thoughts, influence our feelings and behaviors. So if we go into the conversation thinking that it’s going to be a fight, thinking that the other person is difficult, or the other person’s a bad person that’s gonna influence our emotions going into it.
We’re automatically going to view everything through that lens. And we’re gonna behave accordingly. So, you know, the client that I was coaching that I mentioned, he, after we were talking, he realized, “Oh, I was going to the conversation already expecting her to gimme bad news.” So he was already primed to be upset and angry. He was like psyching himself up, like, I’m gonna be upset at this.
And so we talked about it. A better mindset from going into was, “I just need to be curious. I just need to be open and figuring out what is this person gonna say and why might they be saying this information?” And like that was the biggest change for him. Like I didn’t really do much in terms of like how he would phrase the conversation. Just really, “What am I thinking going into this?”
And from there he was able to take it and go and just say, “Okay, why is she asking me to do this task?” And then he was able to explore with her what to do going forward. So it made a big difference that way.
And then the third thing I think is just thinking through kind of what you’re gonna say. There’s so much to, that, that can be said about the opening, how you open it, how you phrase everything. And I think it’s important to draw up. What are you gonna say? How are you gonna say it? Practicing it out loud so you know how it sounds and whether the wording needs to be different based upon who the other person is and your understanding of them.
NM :
Hey everyone, Nolan here. I have to jump in and end today’s podcast part A of the show. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to The NEGOTIATEx Podcast if you haven’t already. And also join us next week for Part B of this awesome interview.
