Nolan Martin :
Hello, welcome to the NEGOTIATEx Podcast. My name’s Nolan Martin. Joining me as always, is Aram Donigian. Aram, would you like to introduce the guest and what we’ve got going on today?
Aram Donigian :
Obviously, like not only do we have a guest on the podcast, but I have a guest in my home. So this is a little bit of a shift from how we typically do this. So, Nolan and audience, it is my honor to introduce award-winning British storyteller, Simon Brooks, who has been entrancing audiences for over 20 years. His tales, both live in-person or virtual, and his award-winning recordings contain everything from humor to pathos, all with a wink and a smile.
He invites all to investigate and to become fascinated with the story as he drops you the tale so vividly, that you would think you were somewhere else. Simon’s workshops have been attended by educational professionals, business owners, fashion designers, parents, and children. His teaching ranges from storytelling workshops to presentation skills and techniques.
Attendees of his workshops are treated to a dynamic experience, whether storyteller or young student, pastor or business person. They are packed with great information you’ll take home and immediately use. Simon has performed at hundreds of schools, colleges, libraries, cafes, pubs, and festivals, including the National Storytelling Festival in Jonesborough, Tennessee, Teller-in-Residence at the ISC, and the…Timpanogos?
Simon Brooks :
Timpanogos.
Aram Donigian :
Timpanogos. See, that’s why I wanted him here, was to make sure I can pronounce things correctly. Storytelling Festival in Utah, amongst others. He has also shared stories with complete strangers at airports and other odd places, and maybe we’ll investigate some of the places. I’ll also add that I first met Simon at an event here in New Hampshire.
My wife, my children, and I were just mesmerized. We’ve become semi-groupies, which is part of why he is in our home, but he just lives, uh, a town down. So anyways, we’ve been following him around different, different events. Yes, you can find him at my home or at simonbrooksstoryteller.com. Simon, welcome to the home. Welcome to the podcast.
SB :
Thanks for having me. This is great. And this, this is a beautiful view outside the window of the studio here.
AD :
Loose term studio. Alright, so why don’t we start with a story? Can you share one of your favorites and then maybe tell us why it’s your favorite story to tell?
Inside Simon Brooks’ Current Favorite Tale and What Drives It [02:18]
SB :
So, yeah. You know, telling a favorite story is kind of like, what’s your favorite drink right now? Right? What’s your favorite food right now?
AD :
What’s your favorite child?
SB :
Yes, very much so. I will start off with a story to give it some thought about the stories I’m gonna tell today. And, this story comes from East Africa and it’s about a farmer and he raises cattle.
And the cattle that he raises are those large white cows, the hump on the neck and the big flappy bit down in the huge horns. And he raises these cattle because they’re not only good for milk, but they’re also good for beef. They’re dual-use, as it were. And he’d been raising cattle for most of his life. And he was, you know, he’s proud of his livestock and he loved his livestock. And one day he went to milk them, milk was his prime source of income, and he found that the cows were dry.
And so he thought, well, maybe it’s just the food they’re eating here, and maybe I need to move them somewhere else. So he took them to another place for them to eat, and he went to milk them again. And again, the cows were dry. So, he moved them to a third spot and he thought, I’m gonna sleep out here tonight and see if someone’s actually stealing my milk, ’cause it’s unusual that two days in a row they’d be empty. They’d be dry. And so he waited and waited. And he’s trying to keep himself awake.
Then he hears this sound, and it’s like this magical tinkling almost. The moon is full and bright and he’s looking around trying to see who’s there, but he can’t see anyone. And then the sound changes and he realizes that this sound is women’s laughter. They’re talking, they’re singing. He looks up, something catches his eye. And he looks up and he sees these maidens, these women coming down on these silver threads.
And upon each back of every one of these maidens, there’s a basket. And each basket is woven in an absolutely unique manner, different colors, different patterns. And as they get closer and closer to the ground, he sees that one hand is carrying a pail…carrying a bucket. And as soon as they touch down, they walk over to his cattle, they throw the buckets under the cattle, and they begin to start milking.
And he’s flabbergasted. “What are you doing? These are my cows. This is the third time you’re milking my cows. You’re stealing my milk.” And he ran towards them. And the women, shocked, jump up, grab what they have in their pails, run to these silver threads, and grab hold of them up into the sky. They go. Apart from one.
When she was startled, her basket fell off of her back and it just took that little bit more to get going. And when she reached up for her thread, it was already gone. And the farmer came up to her and said, “What are you doing? Why are you, who are you? Where have you come from? And why do you keep stealing my milk?”
And she said, “Well, I told my sisters this was the third time. Normally we would only go to one herd at a time. You see, we come from the stars, we come from the heavens, and we have everything that we need. Except milk. We come down and we take milk, but we never take it from the same person more than once. And I told my sisters that you had moved your cattle.”
And he looked at her and he said, “Well, how are you going to get back up home?” And she said, “I don’t know. The threat is gone.” And he looked at her and he said, “Well, would you like to stay with me?” And she said, “I’ll stay with you on one condition. And that is you never look in my basket.”
And he looked at the basket on her back and he’s like, “That’s easy. That’s an easy prompt. I’ll do it. Yeah, sure.” And so she goes back to his house. He makes up a pallet for her on which to sleep, and they live together and she helps him with the cattle and helps him with the milking of the cows and going to market and everything goes really, really well. And they get on fairly well. You know, they’re not enemies by any means. They like each other.
And then one day she steps outta the house. She realizes in 10 steps that she doesn’t have the basket on her back. This is the first time she’s left his home without the basket on her back, and she takes those 10 steps back. She opens the door and she sees the man sitting there on the ground and he’s looking in her basket.
When he looks up and sees her, he bursts out loud, “Why did you tell me not to look in the ba…? There is nothing in here. Why did you make such a promise if there’s nothing in this basket?”
And he laughed as a woman just sat there staring at him and she said, “I’m going to leave. You made a promise to me that you would never look in the basket. And the other reason is it’s because you did not see what was in it. For within my basket are my dreams, my goals, my aspirations, my talents, and my skills.”
And she walked over, took the basket from the man, put it on her shoulders, made her way out into the field, and there was a silver thread hanging down, and she took hold of it and was pulled up into the heavens, never to be seen again.
AD :
Wow. The round of applause for sure. Why do you like that story so much?
SB :
So, well, one of the reasons that I like that story so much is because it’s about power and how we can give it and take it, right? And there’s a lot of people there that don’t have very much power. You know, it’s not just women.
There are other people out there that don’t have power. And I think it’s important to show people that, you know, don’t forget these people, right? And also there are people out there that have been abused in one form or another.
AD :
Yeah.
SB :
And I think this story is a safe way of talking about that. In some way or another to make it come out.
And for people to understand that, you know, the little things do make a huge difference, right? And in this particular story, the woman is powerful enough and has enough emotional intelligence to know this is not gonna work.
AD :
Yeah.
SB :
And so she makes the step to return.
AD :
Yeah.
SB :
To her previous place.
AD :
Well, I mean, I like it. I like the calling them on a commitment. Don’t make a commitment…
SB :
Yes.
AD :
…if it’s not something you can follow through on.
SB :
Right.
AD :
But also I liked it ’cause it’s about seeing people, right? And with seeing what matters to someone.
SB :
Right.
AD :
And being able to look inside. And if you can’t see that, that’s probably not someone I wanna associate with…
SB :
Right, right.
AD :
…in any form.
SB :
Right. Yeah. I mean you could, you know, from a business point of view, you could look at it as, you know, she’s an employee coming in and the guy is the manager or the, you know, whoever’s in charge, right? Like the supervisor. And you know, respect is a two-way street.
Right. And you have to respect the people that you work for, and you have to respect the people that you are employed by. There’s a certain level where that needs to be earned as well.
AD :
Yeah.
SB :
And obviously in this particular case, the guy didn’t earn it at all.
AD :
Not at all.
SB :
Yeah. And so she was like, no, I’m done. Yeah.
NM :
So Simon, what drew you to storytelling in the first place? I mean, was there a moment, an experience that made you realize this is definitely something that I want to do?
How Simon Brooks First Knew Storytelling Was His True Calling [08:15]
SB :
It’s kind of odd. I mean, basically what happened was, I’ve always written stories ever since I was a kid, I’ve written stories. And so, you know, growing up I’d write stories down and I’d read them a year or two later and I’d be like, “This is gross. Throw it out.” Right? And you know, because I didn’t think of longevity or anything like that. And looking back on that stuff and being like, “Oh. Bless.”
So I threw a lot of it away. But I, I always wrote, and I kept writing and, you know, to cut a long story short, I ended up running youth hostels in England and Wales on the South Coast. And what I would do is I’d see these school groups, they come and stay, and these families will come and stay. And the teachers and the parents, they’re not used to looking after kids 24/7. Right? Unless they’re homeschooled. That’s right. But you could see sometimes towards the end of the week, if they were staying for a week, these people would be getting like a little bit antsy.
And so I had all these stories. I was like, well, and the hostel that we had, they had this big living room space, and all the dormitories were like off that space. And so I would take the kids in the living room and I’ll tell ’em stories. And you can, you know, you can see me straight from the dormitory, right? And so the parents would be, or the teachers would be drinking a glass of wine. I’d be telling my stories to the kids.
And then one day a group of teachers said, we’re gonna go and see a storyteller in Hastings. And actually in battle, where the Battle of Hastings took place. And would I like to come along?
And so I said, absolutely, I’d love to come along. And so I was taken. This guy, Eric Madden, told these folk fairytales. Well, they were historical stories, but there were some myths and legends in there as well. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is brilliant. Why am I telling my stories when you’ve got these folk and fairytales that have so much power to them and they’re compacted so nicely, you know?
And so I dropped telling my own stories and began to tell folk and fairytales. And then when I met my wife there running the youth hostels and she didn’t wanna live in a hostel filled with 60 screaming kids 24/7, right?
AD :
Why not?
SB :
So I came over to the States and she’s the youngest of seven. There were nephews and nieces I told stories to. And then another long story short, I ended up being a stay-at-home dad and some friends of mine said, you should become a children’s librarian ’cause you do all this storytelling stuff and you hang out with all these kids and do lots of arts and crafts and other things with them hiking and whatnot. Like, why don’t you take this job?
There’s this library that needs a children’s librarian. I was like, well, I’m not trained, but at the end of the summer, they were still looking for someone. So I got a job there and I was telling stories, not reading from a book, but actually telling the stories and the mommy circuit told other libraries that they would go to. And those libraries started to phone me up and say, you’re a storyteller. Come and tell stories. And I was like, sure.
Literally how it began. At that time, I’d been a professional photographer. That’s what I’d gone to college and studied. And at that time I was trying to reignite the photography and I was making exactly the same amount of money doing the storytelling as I was with the photography without the outlay of the expenses of film and processing and all that kind of stuff. And I realized that I needed to put my energy into one or the other. So I went all in with the storytelling and it’s, it’s been absolutely brilliant for me. I love it. I, you know, talking about like unusual places, you know, if I see children that are upset with families and stuff.
AD :
Yeah.
SB :
It’s like I’ll go over and like, “Hey, I’m a storyteller, you know, can I tell your kids a story?” And some people are like, “No, go away. Strange man.” There are other parents that are like, “Yeah, sure, go for it.” And I’ll tell the kids a story and sometimes it settles ’em down and sometimes it’s a massive failure. But, you know, but it’s, you know, it’s just opening these people up. This is another thing that you can do to calm a child down and or anyone down really. And so that’s the whole story.
AD :
And I’ve seen that in practice. I’ve seen him with a group, in different situations. Kids come in, maybe not if they’re behaving best for whatever reason, and the power of the story to settle them. Which really kinda leads to my next question, which is, you know, throughout history, storytelling has been central, whether it’s to cultures or societies, and certainly to families. I’m just, I’m curious, you know, why do you think that stories hold such enduring power across time and place?
Simon Brooks Explores Why Stories Transcend Time, Culture, and Place [11:59]
SB :
So with folk and fairytales, myths and legends as well, I think the main thing is that as soon as we started to be able to describe things around us, we wanted to try and understand the things around us. So these stories do that, right? You know, look at the paintings on the walls, the caves in France, right? They’re talking about hunting expeditions, right?
Some of those paintings show where to go hunting, where the best, you know, catches and whatnot. But these folk and fairytales have been passed along orally for like hundreds and hundreds of years, right? They were written down for the first time in the 17 and 18 hundreds, right? Before then, they were always passed on orally.
So all of the rough edges are being taken away, right? And so you’ve got this incredibly powerful story that explains our world around us. It shows us the commonality of our existence no matter where we come from, and we can share in that experience. And when you share stories, you actually end up building community.
You know, I mean, I can go into a school or a community where I’m doing stories for the community. And you know, when you drive into a town, you can see from signs the polarity politically of that community. But you can tell these stories and in telling these stories, that community starts to come together because the stories that you tell share the commonality of each of us.
Right. And it’s like, yeah, maybe I’ve treated someone like that and I shouldn’t. I need to be a better boss. Or, oh my God, I’m stuck in that situation. Maybe I need to walk out. Just using that story as an example, you know, stories like Hansel and Gretel. We don’t leave our children anymore out in the wilderness to starve to death.
Not to starve to death, but to be killed by the animals ’cause it’s a quicker way to die than starving. Right. Which is slow and painful. Yeah. But children are still abandoned. Right. Not in the woods, but the parents that have jobs that take them far away from home, or they’re working two or three jobs just to keep a roof over their head.
Parents might be incarcerated or the parents might be just too busy doing their own thing to spend time with that child. And that child feels abandoned, right? And so the child can identify with that, right? There are dark things out in the woods, you know, whether it’s the woods right out here, right? Or, if it’s the woods in the city, Chicago Town, right?
There are monsters and evil people out there, and these stories give you hope, even though this is a really terrible place I’m in right now. There’s hope that I can get outta this. You know, there are gems to be found somewhere, or I just gotta look for ’em and find them.
So many motifs in the stories, you know, there’s always, there’s the helper, right? And it’s like in the workplace you might find someone that’s willing to help you get over a certain problem, right? And they help you on to the next stage. Then you become the helper because you learn something and hopefully you give it back, right? So there’s that side to all these stories. And I think that’s why they endure is because, you know, they’re like distilled wisdom, right?
AD :
They reinforce whether it’s themes that we go through, you know, abandonment or whatever, and they’re common themes. And then you mentioned a kind of building the community, bringing people together.
Nolan, I know every military unit I was ever a part of, and I would assume, you can probably talk to it as well, particularly like special ops, to the power of story, the sharing of, you know, great deeds or brave actions reinforcing that, whether it’s on a small scale or something larger.
NM :
Yeah. I think that’s also how the legends are born, right? You always hear these crazy stories about, you know, someone did so and so, they earned a silver star, and it’s just like, man, powerful. ‘Cause you know, this person, it’s, it’s relatable like you see this person and so yeah, definitely see the impact in, especially throughout our military career.
So what’s the secret sauce? Is it the British accent? Is it the content? You named a bunch of things there of how it’s so important?
Simon Brooks Shares the Key Ingredient in His Storytelling Style [15:27]
SB :
I think the secret sauce is being authentic. You know, the English accent helps me over here, right? But it doesn’t help me back in the UK at all. In fact, you know, my accent is, I’ve been told I was in, I can’t remember the town that I was in, but I was looking at this Royal Air Force Memorial Garden and the guy was just locking up and he was like, “Yeah, there’s some of you lot in here too.”
And I was like, “What do you mean ‘you lot’?” And he’s like, “Yanks.” And I’m like, “I’m English.” And he’s like, “You sound like a Yank.” Right. So I have this Mid-Atlantic voice right now. Okay. So it doesn’t really work in the UK either now anyway.
But it’s not the voice. It’s the story and it’s, when you tell the story, you have to be authentic. And when I’m telling stories from other cultures, like that first one from Africa, I don’t want to have people thinking it’s Guernsey, right? Because they don’t have Guernsey in Eastern Africa. Or, if they do, I don’t know of it.
So when I do research for my stories, I look up what kind of cows would these be, and these would be the cows, right? And so I describe ’em so that people know that we are definitely in Africa. And so I keep that story very much in its culture because that’s important.
And then when you tell the story and you share the story, you know, that’s where the commonality is built. Because it’s like, well, we have cows, we have farmers that do this. And if, or, you know, you might be telling a community, it might be a farmer that you’re telling the story to, and then all of a sudden it’s got this farmer’s like, “Oh my gosh, I wonder if I’ll get any star mates coming down and visit me.” You know?
So I think being authentic as you can, like bringing your true self along with that story that you are sharing.
AD :
Do you adjust at all? I mean, you tell several stories typically? At least when, when I’ve seen you. Do you get a sense of what the audience is responding to and maybe not, and do you adjust on the spot a little bit?
Adapting on the Fly: Simon Brooks Talks Audience Reactions [17:00]
SB :
Yeah. You can definitely feel it if they’re not. I think anybody who performs on a stage will tell you that. You know, sometimes you’re not sure if you’re on, right? And you’re doing the best job that you can be, but you sure as heck know if the audience isn’t with you. And so you need to make an adjustment and you can tell that when you’re telling a story and you can see where you start to lose them.
And then you gotta think, well, how can I draw them back? And so you use little things like, you know, the tone of voice, the volume of your voice. You might get very, very quiet so that people are like, oh, hang on, what’s he saying? I’m missing this now. And so they have to lean in to listen or, you might just take a very long pause just to see what happens and then carry on with the story.
Simon Brooks Reveals How Comics Helped Craft His Story Voice [17:37]
For me, it’s been an experience because, you know, I tried all of these things. I watch a lot of comics as well.
AD :
Okay.
SB :
I watch a lot of comics because I love humor and there’s not enough humor in the world, I don’t think. And everyone’s like fighting each other and it’s, I just wanna bring a bit of joy, right? And so, ever since I was a kid, I loved comedy. And so, you know, growing up I watched a lot of English comics, Robin Williams being an American comic, you know, and then watching him in interviews. Finding comics that he loves and watching them to see what, and why he liked them.
Those comics that I haven’t seen in years since I was a little kid and something will pop up on YouTube and I’ll be like, “Oh my gosh. That’s where I get that from.” And I have no idea that I’ve called, you know, it’s had such an effect on me. Yeah. It’s just like sat inside all these years and all of a sudden it’s like coming out all on its own, you know?
AD :
Do you have a particular story that you found had a, a great impact with an audience? Perhaps even changed someone’s perspective or even their life?
A Story With Impact: Simon Brooks on Trusting Instincts [18:31]
SB :
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that first story that I told, I was in a school and it was a full school assembly. All the teachers of that, and its grades, K through eight. And I told that story and there was this one teacher who was sitting pretty much in front of me. And you could tell that story like hit something inside in her really deeply. So yeah, it does happen. It does happen. And sometimes people will come up to you afterward and they’ll say, I needed to hear that story. And it’s made me think of a situation that I’m in complete…think about it completely differently…and thank you very much.
It doesn’t happen all the time. Yeah. But it happens enough to be noticeable. And it’s not like a one-off or anything like that. And sometimes when you’re telling a story in front of an audience, you know, like when I’m telling more than one, sometimes a story will hide. It won’t want to be told, even though it’s like I know that story really well, and it’s like, why can’t I think of it right now?
It’s like it’s hiding. It’s like “I’m gun shy. I’m not gonna be told.” Right? But then there’ll be another story going, “me, me, me, tell me, me, me, me.” And it’s jumping up and down. And for me, it’s like, all right, I have to tell this story. And so that’s the story that I’ll tell. And sometimes in those cases, that’s when someone will come up to me afterward and say, I really need to hear that story.
AD :
Interesting.
SB :
And it’s just, you know, it’s just like, wow, you know, it’s the story. It’s not me. Yeah, it was, it must have known that you were in the audience. ’cause it was like it was calling out to be told.
AD :
So there’s a lot of art to this and a little bit of gut sense of the kind of, of what is, what’s needed at the moment.
NM :
We live in this age of short attention spans and digital overload. Has storytelling changed in the modern era? You know, how do you capture and keep an audience’s attention today?
Keeping Stories Alive: Simon Brooks on Adapting to Modern Audiences [20:01]
SB :
That’s a really good question. So the best way of answering that is describing kids. After 2020 when they hadn’t been in school for a year, they hadn’t had all school assemblies. And they hadn’t been taught to sit still and sit down. Whereas they had been given devices ’cause parents were at home trying to get their work done and they’re like, “Here, go watch YouTube.”
And off they would go, right? And they watched Talking Heads all day or whatever. And so when I got back, you know, when we got back to getting into schools, attention spans were shot to pieces. You know, there was no attention span. So, where I would tell four stories in an hour. I might only be able to tell three because there’d be a lot of interruptions. There would be, you know, people fidgeting, getting up and down, going to the bathroom, and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I’m talking about school kids here and so it taken a while to get back to somewhat normal.
Now there are still some kids that are like that. But they do, they fall into the stories. It might take two stories for them to fall into now instead of one. But once you get them, I mean, I talked to kindergarten the other day and they said, “Well, we’ll give you half an hour and you know, if you can get 20 minutes outta them, that would be brilliant.”
I went 40 minutes with them and they were just mesmerized by it. And I think it’s because I chose the right stories. Yeah, the right stories came to me and they were in the right space and they just needed to hear the stories right there and there. And then afterward they went nuts.
NM :
Oh, time to go.
SB :
Yeah, absolutely. Check out time. Ah, where’s the sugar?
NM :
Hey everyone, Nolan here. Have to jump in today’s podcast part A of the show. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to NEGOTIATEx podcast if you haven’t already. And join us next week for part B of this awesome interview.
