Nolan Martin :
Well, I’m excited for today because we’re talking about managing working relationships. I know a lot of the people in the community have a, seem to have a difficult time. We get approached about this a lot. They seem to not be able to. Let’s say not burn bridges whenever they’re going through a negotiation.
So how about we approach this topic today. How does that sound?
Balancing the Deal and the Relationship: Why Most Negotiators Get It Wrong [0:22]
Aram Donigian :
That sounds great. Yeah. I’m gonna be really frank. I don’t think most people understand how to manage working relationships very well.
NM :
What do you think that is and what do most people not understand?
AD :
And those that claim that they do actually practice some pretty ineffective relationship strategy.
NM :
Yeah, so people that push hard on the substance of the deal tend to damage the relationship versus people who preserve the relationship tend to get worse substantive outcomes. Can’t speak today, Aram.
AD :
I am convinced that everyone, on some level, they see negotiation as a trade off between the substantive things they’re negotiating over. Okay. Things like price, volume, quality, different specs, terms, around flexibility or guarantees and so forth. It’s a trade off between those things and the relationship. The level of trust, respect, understanding, so that’s, how people engage, how they share information, how they communicate, so forth.
They believe that one has to come at the cost of the other, and that’s deeply embedded. I’m just, I’m convinced that’s true.
NM :
And you don’t agree that’s the correct choice?
AD :
Yeah, that would be the correct perceived bilateral choice that many people feel that they’re making.
NM :
Sure. Because if that substantive outcome is to be effectively implemented, which I mean after all is the reason why we negotiate, you might need a strong relationship to do so. Okay, so you say at the beginning that people who get this idea still end up practicing ineffective relationship strategies. It seems kind of counterintuitive. What do you mean by that?
Why Common Relationship Tactics In Negotiation Backfire [01:51]
AD :
No, not at all. I don’t think it’s the choice that needs to be made, and it’s only that way because of how people are negotiating, how we approach this idea of negotiation.
Personally, my goal is to negotiate outcomes that are really good substantively and strengthen the relationship. I think that the strategies that people try to implement actually range quite a bit. I see folks who think that this small talk chitchat at the very beginning of the negotiation is developing the relationship.
And then they, like, when they get into the negotiation, they and all these niceties have been established. They set those things aside and it’s really crazy, but it’s actually like they, you can hear it in their tone. They shift and it’s two totally different conversations, weirdly happening at the same time.
NM :
I’ve totally seen that too. It’s like they, excuse my language, but they come like a total ass, like all of a sudden, totally seeing that too. What else do you see?
AD :
I also see people trying to buy the relationship. Now they don’t frame it that way, but in essence, that’s what they’re trying to do.
They’re practicing some of that old fashioned quid pro quo and they’re really caught up between, good relationship and good substance. Get me this better price and I’ll trust you more. We’ll talk a little more in a moment. It doesn’t tend to work. Or people tend to naively try to practice the golden rule blindly trusting a counterpart which gets you taken or the reactionary eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, which unfortunately leads to a terrible spiral of doom.
And that’s often based on perceived behaviors of the other party.
NM :
Tell us more about these unconditionally constructive strategies.
Unconditionally Constructive: Respect-Driven Strategies for Stronger Negotiations [03:33]
AD :
To treat people with respect. And there are a number of ways that we can do that when we discuss things, speak for yourself. Don’t speak for them. Let them fill in their own blanks.
Don’t finish their sentences. Don’t even try to capture their ideas. Let them speak for themselves. Pause. Don’t let, don’t fill the space. Let them fill it. Consult with them before deciding something. People appreciate being asked. They appreciate being engaged in the process. Avoid coercion, use the tests of reciprocity.
What I appreciate being treated this way, the way that I’m treating them, would I appreciate that, separates an intent from impact. So give people the benefit of the doubt when things go awry, like and they’re, what are they really trying to do versus the impact of its having on me. Those are two separate things.
And then finally, consider joint contribution rather than blaming. And as I do that, start with my role in the problem.
NM :
Yeah, I think this is definitely a lot, but I know it also seems like it’s common sense. So, I mean is it that simple? Is it common sense ways to treat people?
AD :
You would think that these are things we probably should have just learned in kindergarten.
NM :
So then why? Why do we get lost during a negotiation?
AD :
Well, you know, again, I think it’s this confusion that I mentioned at the beginning, which is this tension between getting a good substantive outcome and the belief that we have to choose between it and a relationship. People are problem solvers. It’s why when I walk into a room with clients they’re all a lot of type A personalities who’ve been incredibly successful in their careers.
They are fixated on getting things done, and they tend to get fixated on this false choice between relationship and substance that leads them to doing things that if they were to step out for a moment, they know are contrary to being truly effective and even contrary to who they are as people.
NM :
This kind of reminds me of the book, Getting To Yes, where you’re soft on the people, but hard on the problem. And if you’re interested in that book, we’ll have it a link in the show notes. You just go to negotiatex.com/eight and that will have a link to Getting to Yes, it’s an awesome book and it talks about this, sorry, go ahead Aram.
Problem-Solving Together: A Better Path to Stronger Negotiations [05:40]
AD :
Yeah, that’s that maxim that you just shared from Getting to Yes. It is really true and it’s a great transition to some of the other vi advice that I would share. Another relationship strategy or move is to explore problems side by side. And that can be figurative but it can be literal too.
There’s power when we actually sit on the same side of the table with someone with my counterpart and what happens is, rather than being fixated on each other as the problem. We can, together, we can focus on solving this problem, whatever the issue is before us, we can solve it by working on it together by sitting inside.
NM :
Yeah. I think that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, is I imagine something like that requires a lot of trust and transparency to be able to do that and be effective.
AD :
Yeah, sure, yeah, it really does. So we need to be wholly trustworthy. We’re protecting our reputation as negotiators, as leaders, as people. And at the same time, we don’t have to be wholly trusting. It’s that old Ronald Reagan quote about trust, but verify. And we need to be able to frame conversations, discussions in ways that demonstrate a real willingness to understand their views while not necessarily committing to agreeing with those views.
NM :
Yeah. Now earlier you had mentioned we don’t want to buy relationships and we would get to it later in the podcast. So, kind of wanted to circle back on that. What were you talking about there?
Why Concessions Don’t Buy Trust: Repairing Relationships the Right Way [07:00]
AD :
Yeah, no one’s gonna frame it as buying a relationship. But oftentimes what they will do is make a substantive concession, okay?
So concede on some term price or some negotiation term and believe that somehow that’s benefiting the relationship. Okay? I’ve never seen that work. Now, I haven’t seen people try it or even accept it. The other party is going to happily accept a concession from you.
But the question is, did that really do anything to increase trust? Would you, Nolan, would you trust me anymore if I gave you a thousand dollars? Or how about how, let’s say $10,000. Would you trust me more if I gave you $10,000?
NM :
Let’s go ahead and find out, man. You have my bank account information.
AD :
Oh, good. Yeah, that’s a good try. Okay.
NM :
No, but I get what you’re saying, like it’s I don’t think really, you’re not building any more trust. You’re just giving me more money. I don’t know if that’s really achieving anything. I’ll certainly take it though if you decide to do that.
AD :
Yeah. The two aren’t connected, so we need to separate out the issues and deal with each on their own merits.
Let me give you an illustration that might help. Clarify for some of our listeners. I like to tell this story about my 15th wedding anniversary. I was taking my wife out to dinner at this really nice, expensive restaurant. We had reservations, so we got there and even with reservations, we waited for 45 minutes before we got seated.
And the wait staff brought out water, dropped the glass of water and spilled the water in my lap. So that wasn’t good. We had to wait forever to get our food. It was just incredibly slow. I had to keep raising her hand to get any attention to get drinks refilled and so forth. When our main course finally arrived, my wife’s dish was wrong.
It was not what she ordered. And it was just a very, awful evening for what was supposed to be this wonderful celebration.
NM :
That’s incredibly crappy. But then now I’m trying to like back up too, because you have six kids, so not only did the dinner go just awful, but I imagine with six kids, it’s pretty difficult to be able to even go out on a date like that. How many kids did you have at year 15?
AD :
I don’t know. I’ve lost count. We probably had four. Probably had four. At four at that time,
NM :
We’ll say four to six. Okay, yeah, four, so I imagine you had to get a babysitter and set up the night. It’s just probably planned out, weeks in advance and then to go build up and everything to have a night like that.
I imagine that was pretty awful. But I’m assuming the point of the story is that they attempted to buy your kind of relationship here. Is that what you’re getting at here?
AD :
Sure. Yeah. There was clearly a violation of the kind of the contract we had. Coming to a place like that and pay for a certain service. And so the question, here’s a question for you is what would it take for them to get me back there? What’s it gonna take for them to get me back through their doors for another special event?
NM :
See, this isn’t like a normal restaurant, like a normal casual restaurant. The waitress could be like, hey, I’m sorry, here’s a free meal.
If you go to Applebee’s. That’s what I’m expecting, but at a formal restaurant, like you’re explaining, I would hope that the head manager or chef comes out and provides a true sincere apology because obviously there are several mistakes that happen throughout the night. So that’s what I would expect in that kind of situation. Is that what happened?
AD :
No it’s not what happened. And it is very disappointing. But that is what should happen, right? We should address the relationship. We should apologize. We should acknowledge that, you know what we said we were going to do when you walked in and what we did, we’re not the same thing.
And that’s really around now the integrity of the relationship. Between us and we should, you know, be able to offer some explanation or if there is no explanation, be able to offer that too. And yeah, I would expect someone to come out and address it on a very personal level. I love it when any customer service agent, anybody who works with customers and clients, when they get that.
The concession giving, giving us a meal for free, it’s not going to make me trust that they’re gonna get it differently next time. It’s not gonna get me to come back next time. You’ve gotta deal with the broken trust, the impaired relationship, and you do that through your behaviors and how you demonstrate and demonstrate respect.
NM :
Anything else you’d like to add to our list of unconditionally constructive relationship struggle or strategy. Actually, I wanna back up there. How did it end? So if they didn’t come out and apologize, what was the outcome? I know our listeners are dying to know.
Balancing Emotion and Reason: Why Empathy Matters in Negotiation [11:31]
AD :
They offered me a discount which I accepted. I paid our check and we’ve never been back. And nor will we go back. So it’s, again, the relationship was not repaired simply by making a substantive concession, but I think a lot of folks get caught in that trap and they think that’s gonna fix things and it doesn’t.
NM :
Kind of a missed opportunity there. Alright. Sorry. Okay, so anything else you’d like to add to our list of unconditionally constructive relationship strategy?
AD :
Yeah. Just one more thing. We need to remember to keep emotion and reason in balance, and that is for both us and for our counterparts. We should acknowledge how things have or are impacting us and recognize the same impact for them. Be able to name. feelings and even share important feelings that we have.
We all love to pretend that there’s no place for emotions at the negotiation table. No, no one has ever said in any negotiation, any meeting I’ve ever been involved in, no one has ever spoken these words that, you know what this negotiation needs right now? More emotion! We just, we need more emotion.
But the emotions are there. People’s feelings are there. Company’s futures in individuals careers. These things are all at stake when we’re negotiating and how we negotiate, how we implement things impact. And so ignoring that emotions are at the table is just foolish.
NM :
Managing those emotions has gotta be critical when you’re at the negotiating table. It’s gotta be crucial.
AD :
And while we’re not gonna dive deeply right now into how you manage them, maybe that’s something we can do in another session. If listeners are interested, I’ll be happy to do that.
Let me just let me just say that the ability to demonstrate genuine empathy is really essential. And I’m gonna quote the amazing Dr. Brene Brown and, if you haven’t read anything by her, I highly recommend you do. She’s just an amazing person, but here’s what she says. She says, empathy fuels connection.
It involves perspective-taking, avoiding judgment, recognizing another’s emotion, and communicating that recognition. As Dr. Brown says, empathy is a choice and it’s a vulnerable one. That’s how we deal with people’s feelings.
NM :
Appreciate it. That is it for us on today’s podcast, and we will see you in the next episode.
