Nolan Martin :
Hey, everyone, Nolan here. We’re gonna continue our conversation with Coach Riise in just a minute, but make sure if you didn’t already listen to part A of this episode that you do that before listening to part B.
Yeah, Andyand something that you mentioned earlier was how important it is to be flexible. And so I’m wondering kind of, as we look at biases that you may have towards someone when they’re doing something and you’re comparing it to basically how you do something, there’s inevitably going to be some biases.So what kind of work do you do with your clients to effectively increase self-introspection while you’re simultaneously managing negative perceptions of others.
The Benefits And Pitfalls Of Self Awareness And Bias [1:44]
Andy Riise :
It’s a great question. And I appreciate it on a number of different levels. First of all, I, I’m not an expert in biases. I highly recommend, if you haven’t read,Thinking Fast and Slow by DanielKahneman, I would highly recommend it. I think you guys had mentioned it before too, and there’s some great resource and lists I could provide the listeners that kind of list out what the biases are and what they mean. The way that I think about biases is kind of like the shadow side of thinking. Carl Jung talked about that too, you know? So how do I project myself to others? Right. So I think that the one that I’ll talk about, I just recently listened to it on a podcast is really profound to me is this idea that we have biased blind spots,what is called the introspection illusion.
So when I’m coaching clients and I, if you hear someone say, “well, I’m pretty self-aware”, that’s a red flag. That’s a red flag because someone who thinks they’re self-aware just like, somebody thinks they’re know everything, probably doesn’t isn’t as self-aware as they think. And so which relates to another type of bias called the Dunning Kruger effect. But going back to the introspection illusion, is that the way that we judge ourselves is incongruent with how we judge others and let’s go back to the Chris Rock Will Smith incident. Right? And we can look at them separately and objectively, right? So, let’s look at Chris Rock for a second. Chris Rock obviously made an inappropriate joke towards Jada Pinkett’shair. She’s gotalopecia so on and so forth. So, you could look at from that lens and you say,“Chris Rock was wrong and I would never do anything like that.”
That’s what we do right? And so that, which is another form of bias, which is kind of character assassination like “that guy’s a jackass”, kind of what people are reacting to and vomiting on social media right now looks like. Let’s look atWill Smith and the same thing happens, right? You’re like “Will Smith, he’s this high character guy. And he just completely ruined his reputation and he should have never got up and slapped Chris Rock in front of television” and you see what’s happening, right? I would never do anything like Chris Rock. I would never act inappropriately like that too.Well, let’s hold on for a second. Chances are, and we may not have done it on the world stage and we may not have slapped and done things like that too. But chances are, we’ve been a jackass in small ways or big ways, right.
But how we see ourselves and how we judge others are completely different. We look at the 10% of the iceberg and we don’t account for everything that’s below the surface. But when we look at ourselves, we think we see the 90% of the iceberg and we don’t see the rest of the 90% of the iceberg. And that is the hard truth that we have to understand as human beings and as leaders is that we are not omnipotent. There’s no such thing as a hundred percent self-aware. So how are you gonna get feedback or important, how you gonna turn that feedback into feed forward? And I think that’s really important in terms of who you surround yourself with, an executive board, people that are gonna tell you the truth, they’re gonna do it in a way that is gonna allow you to get better, that you trust and that you approach things. Everything that you do is an opportunity to be able to get better versus be defensive and realize that I’ve got it all figured out, or I’m like the best things to slice bread to negotiate. Right?
NM :
That’s awesome. Thanks, Andy.
Aram Donigian :
And might I just dig a little deeper here, Andy. Any other things you do to increase the, I mean,how do I increase my self-awareness when I think I’m self-aware? How can I become more aware of my 90%? And then I guess, how does that translate more… what more can I do to translate into understanding somebody else’s 90%?
AR :
Yeah. I mean, the first thing I would say is that, and again, this is the only practice that I actually mandate when I’m working one on one with clients, athletes, whoever you guys listed is like to journal. And I think to be reflective, like we know the memory is really fallible, so do it in the moment. You know, you could do this in like pre-post negotiation too, is like, Hey, where I’m capturing my thoughts, like in real time. And then what’s happening is the tactile movement. And the research shows that I’m actually writing it down. It’s not about going back and referencing the notes. That’s why you and I, as army or former army officers have got these like shelves full of green notebooks. Right? How many times have you pulled those notebooks out?
AD :
Nolan’s got one.
AR :
Oh boy, Joe Barley, from the green notebook? It’s not about recalling it. It’s about being in the present moment. And it’s about that. That is a performance that is helping solidify things into your long term memory that can become habit formation, right. In terms of what I do. So that is really one. The other one, I think, like I mentioned too, is like, you know, who are the people in your life that you can trust, that are gonna give you different perspectives? Like, and I love the, I love the Mount Rushmore approach or the executive board of your life. And then there’s some great, you know, if you read that you’re Mount Rushmore, like who are the four people based on the, and, and each of those traits of the presidents- Teddy Roosevelt’s one of my favorite ones, obviously- who have a perspective that they’re gonna give you, whether it’s like from, you know, for me, it’s a different hats that, or maybe from a father standpoint, maybe from a leader standpoint, maybe from a peer standpoint, maybe from a former subordinate standpoint, they’re gonna give you this perspective to maybe help fill in the gaps that we ultimately have as human beings, right?
Knowing that we’re never gonna be a hundred percent self-aware, but if we’re willing to, first of all get uncomfortable, this idea that I’m gonna make mistakes and then learn from it ,that gives you the opportunity to get better. Every time you go enter a negotiation or enter anything that you consider a performance from a day into masterful.
AD :
Well, you know, Andy, so, you know, you shared earlier that you went through negotiation training several times during plea pre-deployment readiness, as I shared the intro, you know, you worked with me when I was teaching at the air force academy, with our negotiation final exam and have a really good sense of our approach, given the skills and your extensive background in mental performance, where do you think negotiation training programs could learn from your field and could improve?
An Interdisciplinary Approach To Performance Psychology And Negotiations [7:30]
AR :
I mean, I would love to have interdisciplinary collaboration. Like this is a great start, right? Like you guys have this awesome depth of knowledge, skills, and experience and from the interpersonal side and, and I have it from the interpersonal side and we’re bringing those worlds together. And I think what we’re seeing is the rise of what I call the para-professional. It’s the Swiss army knife. You read the book Range, it talks about being a generalist. And I think what’s great is that we have all this information at our fingertips allows us to synthesize all of these otherwise would be intangible skills that we could now measure, and that we can train that we can practice with intentionality and deliberateness that make us better at what we do. And I think when you are able to marry them up together, it’s this incredible combination that I think is really, really valuable.
Unfortunately, they’re not trained in tandem. They are held separately, they’re in silos, right? They’re not brought together because they come from different disciplines. So what I would like to see is a more interdisciplinary approach. And not only would I like to see an disciplinary approach, but I like to see it being delivered and accessible to a lot of people through digital means. And I think you guys are trying to do that, which I commend you to, because what’s really cool post-pandemic is this, we’re now working remotely. We’re able to reach more people and train and educate people better. What if we were able to make negotiations and mental skills training more accessible to every person who needs it?It’s not just for the elite and the very few, you know, and I’ll never forget- I was this close guys to getting me and my fire support crew to go to Harvard, to go take a negotiations course, you know? And it got canceled last minute. Cause I think they figured out they, it was probably boondoggle in disguise, but that’s another story.
AR :
I should have gone. I should have gone off the road. The air force academy had you teach this Aram. But my point is it’s like, you know, not everybody has access to this important skillset. They don’t have access to my skillset either, right? The people that need it the most from my middle skill standpoint are the coaches and athletes in the middle school and high school level. That’s where it begins. Imagine if leaders could get access to this skill set, not when they’re an executive, but when they’re a junior emerging leader into a new role, when they’re coming out of West Point, which is so awesome that the West Point negotiations project is there. And so those are the really- I call ’em the Axiom moments, right? When I’m making a transition to a different role or to a different organization, those Axiom moments in our lives and our careers is when you really need this the most. I think having access and democratizing this skillset is really important.
NM :
Well, let’s, let’s continue this cuz uh, Andy get said that basically trying to build the para-professional here. So what else can we take from your field and apply it? Especially when it comes down to the preparation aspect of negotiations is something that Aram and I lean heavy on when we interact with any of our clients and that’s to basically place a large emphasis on preparations and especially preparing for difficult conversations or really challenging conversations, anything of that sort. So what can we take from, from your field and apply it there?
AR :
I think a really good one that maybe a little bit out of the box for our listeners is this idea of using imagery for bringing into our rehearsal, right? So the idea of imagery, like some people call it visualization, but it’s the ability to be able to use your imagination and to make it vivid, personal, and powerful, to create these images in your mind that are almost as good as actually physically practicing it. Actually going through the motions. Right? So if you’re able to use the skill of imagery, we’re bringing in all your senses, so bringing in your sight, bringing in your smell, bringing the taste, bring the feel. And you know, if we have context, the context then allows us to be provide a mental framework for what this looks like and what I want the negotiation to look like.
So you think about just like, Hey, if I was doing a squat, I can see myself do the perfect squat. If I was a pitcher, I could just see myself doing the perfect pitch. If I was performing a surgery, I could see myself, every single motion, going through that and executing it perfectly. You could do the same thing in terms of how you mentally rehearse and do a reconnaissance of what’s gonna actually happen. And the better you get at that, and you’re actually changing the structure of your brain through the idea of neuroplasticity. And there’s a lot of research that goes into this and what’s cool is that I saw Green Berets do this. They treated what they were about to go do is their movement to a kale or Asura and then the movement back.
And they used it during their rehearsal of concept, the rock drill. Right? Well, during your rehearsal, can you imagine incorporating an imagery both individually and collectively together using all of your senses to be as vivid, personal and powerful, and then incorporating that into your preparation for what you’re about to go do with the good of your people. It’s a really powerful tool. And then on the flip side, you use imagery on the back side too. Now I’m individually going back through and reviewing the game film, cuz we don’t always have the foot, you know, the eye in sky doesn’t lie. But if I am able to use this most powerful movie studio that’s ever known to man, that’s between my ears, I could look back and reflect on what just happened to be able to synthesize information that could be useful for me and my team. And so I think using the use of imagery has all kinds of different, I think, applications that we could use in the four phases to get ready and improve in our ability to negotiate.
Roleplaying A Scenario And Learning From Mistakes [13:00]
AD :
So let’s just go a little bit further, cause I’d love for you to coach me. Let’s imagine that I have, um, a tough negotiation tomorrow with a supplier that I’m, I’m really heavily dependent on. Be able to produce a widget that my customers need. And, and boy, the, the last time I engaged with this person, they wereincredibly difficult. We’ve worked together for a long time, but it’s always really stressful, very tense. Maybe they play a lot of games. How do I apply what you just said to get ready to have a better conversation?
AR :
Well, I think we would start off with is we’re gonna kind of frame, we’re gonna like, just, let’s just talk through it. Right. So we’re gonna have a talk through, right. So let’s just do some role play. Right. You know? So like, Hey, I’m me and you’re gonna be the tough customer right. I love the tough customer. Right. Cause we’ve we experienced that too. I don’unno, if you remember when I was the, remember I was the amp, I was the police officer. Yes.
AD :
Yeah. That’s right. [laughs] that’s right. You did. Yeah,
AR :
Yeah. Yeah. I love being, I love being the tough customer. Right. Cause I try to get a reactionoutta the CS air force. It has so much fun doing that. Right. But like, you know, you, you played the tough customer. Right. And then we’re just war gaming. Right. And then we’re, or what’s called red teaming in the civilian world. Right. To where, you know, I’m going through scenarios and how I’d act react. And then we’re pressing pause. And now I’m giving you feedback on what just happened like in an open-ended way where I’m getting you to think on your feet. And you know, it’s just like anything, right. If I make the practice harder than the actual negotiation is, by the time I’ve trained and shifted to the trusting mindset, it’s easy. I’m just letting my interpersonal skills out. Because I’m ready and I know I’m ready and I’m confident I’m projecting confidence and a humble and authentic way. But then everything that I’ve done has now gone through all the potential, the pace plan, the primary alternate contingency and emergency action reaction as far as what could happen. Right? And inevitably Murphy’s gonna show up. Right. And we always know that. But if I’m psychologically flexible because I’ve gone through the difficult discomfort and the preparation, the likely it all be more effective is gonna be self-evident.
AD :
So, you’re a mental skills coach. I I’m gonna assume you’ve never made any sort of mistake when you’re applying these concepts yourself.
AR :
Oh my gosh.
AD :
You are the epitome of perfection and of course I’m joking, but you know, I think sometimes it’s helpful for our listeners to hear- can you share an example of a time when maybe you failed to apply some of the key concepts? What’d you learn from that? And then as the follow up, what’s a time that you look back at and you’re like, yeah, I really had a lot of success cuz I applied what I know and maybe just tell us why that was so successful. So something you consider a failure, something you consider a success.
AR :
No, I mean, oh my gosh. I mean, here’s a little trade secret. Don’t tell anybody is that, everybody who’s in psychology is kind of crazy, and we got something to work on. Right. It’s just like anything and oh, by the way, coaches are almost the worst, generally speaking at applying what the, what they teach. No, but I’m a work in progress just asked my wife, I’m a fixer upper, whatever you want to call it. You know? And so, I think as a young leader, like I talked about like that temper, right. And I think when I started to, I made, I didn’t really have a very good Platoon Sergeant. So remember at West Point we were led to believe we had this night shining armor, this platoon Sergeant that we’re supposed to shut up and listen to the promised land.
I didn’t get that guy. Staff Sergeant Leatherman was not a knight shining armor. He was a turd who drove a purple scooter to work and was absent most of the time. So I was left flapping. Right. And so, I didn’t know how to hold people accountable the right way. And so I was trying to be friendly and I got walked all over, frankly, you know? And so, I was flapping. And then by the time I came back from the deployment, having had that success again, I started to get confidence, but then I overcorrected now in terms of like, I didn’t have that NCO presence to help me with the accountability piece. And when I would hold people accountable, I would do it the wrong way. And so like, I just understand that course correctionor how to treat people, when they make mistakes and hold them accountable the right way is an area where I just really screwed up really badly.
And again, it kind of goes back to the times where I’ve lost my cool, when I’ve been in those situations to where like something was very hurtful to happen to me where you knows that something’s wrong, you know? And so, you get the knife hand effect kind of going on. And so learning how to step back and self-regulate and then create space is another thing too. I think at a success story, you know, in the military, we talk about being tactically patient all the time. That’s not retired. I know about you Aram or what we think Nolan, but like I look back and I had no idea what the health strategic patients meant. What I mean by that is like, be thinking deep in space and time and letting the game come to you. And I think that’s really important for us to understand in terms of how we enter in our connections with people and how we enter in these relationships as being long term, not transactional and not even relational, but being true connections.
Even if for just a moment, because the part that I did well is like I, when I entered in baseball, it was like I was wearing my white belt all over again. I was starting all over, I don’t know if there’s any other veterans, I’m in this space. I’d never been in before. You know, I hadn’t played baseball since I was high school. It’s a whole nother level. Right. And I was in the deep end in terms of deliberate discomfort. And the best advice that I got was from a really good friend, shout out to Ben Freakley, you guys recognize the name Freakley, famous general and brothers that serve in the military. Ben had not but he supported the army as a mental skills coach.Worked for the Blue Jays for a long time now is supporting veterans with Fit Ops.
AR :
And he said, “Andy, I think what you need to do is just let the game come to you”. I’m like, what, how do you mean by that? Are you like Yoda or something? Like, what is this? Let the game come to me. You know, I was like, bill, that they will come was, this was this field of dreams. What do we do right here? So I think what he meant is like, Hey, just to show up and listen, shut your mouth and listen, and be available and shag balls and have conversations by the cage and hit fungos and have lunch with the guys and don’t worry about doing anything. And I think when I looked back at my military career, it was like, you’re on the time clock as soon as you show up as a leader, like I got two years to make an impact or less.
AR :
And I gotta make it happen at all costs.By through with, let’s just make it happen. Right? Well, when you’re entering in a relationship that evolves connection, especially as a mental skills guy, you have to have trust. It’s the most important thing that you have if you don’t have trust, nothing else matters.So I had to earn that trust from the guys as an outsider. And I think that what I learned in spring training over the course of three weeks in, in Arizona was just really a masterclass in life that I am now trying to take in everything that I do. And that is to let the game come to me.Sometimes when you’re performing, it involves doing nothing. And I think sometimes when you’re most effective in negotiating, you’re not doing anything.You’re letting them, you know, it’s almost kind of like this interpersonal aikido that’s happening, where you’re accepting and kind of deflecting. I know I’m getting all California Wuhuon you guys
AR :
But I think it’s really true in practice. And I think if you just sometimes just slow down and stop trying so damn hard, that’s when things cool things happen.
AD :
Thanks.
NM :
Yeah. That’s powerful cuz I think we always talk about tactical patience, but to really talk about strategic patience is a different mindset there. So yeah I appreciate you sharing that. So Andy, this is a podcast that is all about elevating your influence through purposeful negotiations. As we start to close out this podcast, is there anything that Aram and I didn’t ask you that you wanna share with our audience?
AR :
Ooh, ask me, um, I have a question for you guys.What’s your favorite book when it comes to anything having to do with what I’m talking about? How do you guys mentally prepare for the negotiation?
A Brief Run Down Of Aram And Nolan’s Negotiation Preparation Methods [21:00]
AD :
Well, so I mean, I love in terms of maybe, kind of from the psychology field, anything written by Rene Brown, a lot of her works challenge my thinking and I try to bring some of that into the negotiation realm. And then in terms of the things that we often talk about, where a lot of our thought process comes from, there’sGetting to Yes. Difficult Conversations, the HBR Guide to Negotiating, those are some works that really help frame a, a new mindset, a new approach, discipline around preparation, the rehearsal piece. Thinking about how we measure success and then really what you led with, which is the mindset shift helps us to make better decisions at the table,which also is what I wanna doif I’m gonna elevate my performance and get that upper range of performance, I need to be able to make better decisions. And there’s a lot before that, that impacts it.
NM :
And then one of my favorite books and we actually were able to bring him onto the show is Gary Noesner with Stalling for Time.Just really understanding the role that the negotiator can play when it is a life-or-death kind of situation. And how basically stalling for time just inevitably is giving you the negotiation or the negotiator more headspace, it’s giving the tactical team more time to prepare and talking through that with Gary was pretty powerful. And so it definitely, that’s one that comes top to mind right now.
AR :
I think these are all great suggestions too. I think my one I would add in there isthe idea about motivational interviewing, which is just a… as a coach, I wish that I knew what the hell that was. I was introduced to it right before I became a mental skills coach. And it really, what it is, is the art and science of how to ask really good questions, how to guide conversations. So I think it’s a really good complimentary skill, coaching athletes to be their best is kind of my Bible. And I think it’s a really good approach. Like how can you approach a negotiation like a coach? And so that’s one I’d recommend too, but hey, all the tools you can add in the toolkit are just gonna make youand others better. So just keep treating all these intrapersonal and interpersonal skills and negotiating like a performance. And you’re gonna go far.
AD :
Andy. I am gonna ask one more question. I know Nolan wants to take us into round, uh, kind of wrap up, but you know, we talk a lot about how these skills show up in our personal lives. You shared a success and failure, you’re a husband, you’re a father of four, you’rea Boy Scouts volunteer. So you work with young people. You have some young people in your household. And again, no expectation that you always get it right. How do you try to apply these things just in kind of that more familial or just in terms of influencing youth perspective? What, what can we learn in terms of just maybe a broader application there?
A Broader Application Of Psychological Resilience [23:50]
AR :
There’s a couple thoughts come to mind. I mean, kids are just the best negotiators. I mean, and I think when you think about like human beings are designed to negotiate, like just look at kids. I mean, kids are just the best at just manipulating.Especially my daughter. Oh my God. Like, she’s got me, you guys know how you got a daughter and you’re screwed. Like she’s get whatever she wants be. And she’s a really good at it as well too. I think this is really interesting. One in a coaching standpoint, athletically, like I think at youth sports. So I coach under nine rugby. Right. And this’s a contact sport and this is just on my mind. And I think like, you know, when you’re in a contact sport, like playing through injuries is kind of a big deal.
And they’re experiencing this for the first time and they’re trying to make decisions, about, Hey, do I suck it up and continue to play? Or do I come back out too? And I think as coaches we had to enter in with our stance was, and what we came up with was like, Hey, when in doubt, sit it out. And this because became, because we entered in like a difficult situation, we were in a tournament last weekend. I had a young player, you know, I wanna get into the terminology. She’d be like the quarterback. She’s really small. We’re playing another team, a bunch of big boys. Right. And the dad who wasn’t really familiar, he pulled me aside and said, Hey, I’m really worried about my daughter. And my first reaction was like, Hey, don’t under, you know, I understand dad, don’t, underestimate your daughter.
And then I pushed back and I kind of created space. And then I allowed him to talk. He says, “I’m just worried about my daughter’s my daughter’s healthI think she’s under overmatched.” So, so forth. And I just me taking that moment to like show empathy instead of kinda shutting him down. Like, Hey man, we got this allowed me to kind of see it from a fatherly perspective and be like, “Hey, look, I totally understand. Like we’re not playing the world cup here. All right. What do you think we just set her out?”And, you know, he was like, “well, let’s just wait and see”. Andso our goal went, mine was for the health and safety and welfare of the kids. That was the goal and that little micro negotiation that happened. But it would’ve very easy for me to say that as a coach, to stay in my position, which would’ve been, well, we coached her the right technique and I know she’s tough, so she’s gonna be just fine.
For me to take away his position would undermine him and his choice as a father, which he still has a lot of influence over the situation too. So I think by doing that, I co-opted him. And I think he’s willingness to be able to maybe assume a calculated risk with his daughter, you know, was ever, we didn’t play that team. But I think it created a discussion that we hadn’t had before as coaches in terms of what were the non-negotiables when it comes to injuries. Right? So head, and spine injuries,no way. There’s no way. We’re not even negotiating that. But like for every situation, we’re gonna have a little micro negotiation that’s going on. I’m gonna observe the kid, the kid’s gonna tell me, I’m gonna get a second opinion through the team mom, and then we’re gonna make a decision that’s best for the child and best for the team at the same time. Right?So I think that would be a good, good example of like some little micro negotiations that are happening with me that I think about.
AD :
Cool. Thanks.
NM :
Well, Andy, before I kick it over to Aram, to kind of highlight his takeaways from this episode, I just wanna say, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for coming around with the podcast. I know that, we learned a lot and you know, Aram, and I say this a lot. This is gonna be one of those episodes that you gotta go back, listen, two, three times to really be able to pull out everything that you were able to provide us. So thank you so much for everything for showing up.
AR :
Thanks for dressing up Nolan. [Laughs]Appreciate you, man. Stay classy.
AD :
Yep.
NM :
Thanks. Appreciate it.
AD :
Hey, all I’m gonna say is Go Army Beat Navy. I don’t get to say that on the program too often, but we have an army football player on, thanks for joining us.And listen, so many things to take away. I hope people, we’re calling this negotiating from the inside out. Wetake ourselves on, we can make better decisions, influence others; if we’re going to work with others then by, with and through, as you think about managing supplier relationships or any customer relationship, our ability to practice these interpersonal skills will enhance our ability to practice interpersonal skills better. And then I just think, you know what Andy was saying around our process to negotiation, tendency to have some, you know, I think what you called introspection blind spots and, where are we getting feedback? What are we doing around rehearsing? What are we doing around journaling? Those are just good practices that we can take from Andy’s profession and apply it to the field of negotiation too. So again, thanks my friend for being on with us. Thanks
AR :
Brother. Love you. You know that
NM :
That’s it for us on today’s podcast. If you could please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, we greatly appreciate it. It helps us grow, helps us get in front of other listeners and helps pass on these things on how to improve our skills. How do we better leaders at the end of the day, if there’s anything that you want us to cover, please send us an email at team@negotiatex.com. I’ll be happy to cover it. And you know, if you and your organization are looking to get any training regarding negotiations, you have any big actual negotiations coming up. You need, you know, someone else to, to help out with in a consultant form by all means, reach out to us. We’ll be happy to dig into that for you. So appreciate it. We’ll see you in the next episode.
