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NegotiateX Episode 117 Part B: Dr. Joshua Weiss discusses how accepting failure helps improve negotiation skills.
HOSTED BY: NOLAN MARTIN & ARAM DONIGIAN

Accept Failure To Grow Into A Better Negotiator

Key Takeaways
  • Growth happens through challenges and setbacks—not in comfort. Embracing failure leads to real learning and development.
  • Meaningful improvement requires confronting your own role in failures without ego or defensiveness.
  • Surface-level lessons are not enough. Each experience must be critically and contextually examined to extract useful, applicable insights.
  • Progress often requires identifying and replacing unhelpful default assumptions and habits that hold you back.
  • Real confidence in high-stakes situations is built on emotional clarity, adaptability, and internal alignment.
  • Failures are not always personal—broader structures and incentives often play a key role and must be examined.
  • Take initiative, even after failure. Re-engaging with purpose and adjusted strategy—especially after a setback—is a hallmark of strong, resilient leadership.
Table Of Content
  1. Executive Summary:
  2. Transcript:

Executive Summary:

Hey everyone, welcome back to the  NEGOTIATEx Podcast! We’re continuing our conversation with  Dr. Joshua Weiss. In Part A, Dr. Weiss shared insights from his latest book,  Getting Back to the Table: 5 Steps to Reviving Stalled Negotiations. Drawing from both personal experiences and professional expertise, Josh explained why embracing failure is essential to becoming a successful negotiator.

He introduced a powerful five-step framework designed to help individuals and teams reflect on setbacks, break away from unproductive habits, and return to the negotiation table with renewed resilience. Through compelling stories, practical advice, and psychological insight, Josh reframed failure—not as a setback but as a vital catalyst for personal growth and organizational progress.

If you haven’t listened to Part A yet, we highly recommend checking it out before diving into this episode. Now, let’s jump in and explore how to accept failure to grow into a stronger, more effective negotiator.

Learning To Accept Failure: How Honest Reflection & Systemic Insight Lead To Stronger Negotiations

The speakers return to the theme of accepting failure, highlighting how thoughtful analysis of setbacks can lead to better decision-making and more effective negotiations. At the heart of the discussion is the crucial role of honest self-reflection in learning from failed outcomes. 

Joshua stresses that one of the most challenging yet essential steps is the willingness to confront one’s own contributions to the failure. He notes that ego often stands in the way of objective analysis, and learning to quiet that ego can pave the way for genuine growth.

Additionally, Josh recalls a personal experience where someone advised him that recognizing his lack of centrality in others’ perceptions would help him better accept failure and manage its emotional impact. This realization allowed him to see failure as part of the journey rather than a defining outcome. 

He emphasizes the importance of giving oneself grace, acknowledging that while the failure wasn’t ideal, it’s a learning opportunity that can lead to real improvement—if examined honestly.

According to Joshua, a key part of effective analysis is understanding the bigger picture. He illustrates this with an example from his consulting work, where a company’s sales team consistently returned with bad deals because their performance was measured solely on whether or not they secured agreements—not on the quality of those agreements. 

This story highlights how systemic issues, such as flawed incentives, can contribute to poor outcomes often misinterpreted as individual failure. It pushes people to accept failure as a personal flaw rather than recognizing the broader structural problems at play.

Joshua also points out that reaching an agreement in negotiation is not inherently a success. Agreements that don’t meet strategic goals or interests can be more damaging than walking away. The true skill lies in crafting outcomes that align with long-term objectives, not just in securing deals.

Finally, he recommends conducting detailed, tactical reviews of failed negotiations, much like post-mission analyses in the military. This includes identifying critical moments, understanding emotional reactions, and exploring alternative responses. Such granular reflection helps negotiators recognize patterns, anticipate challenges, and respond more thoughtfully in the future. 

Why Surface-Level Lessons From Negotiations Fall Short Without Critical, Contextual Reflection

Aram and Joshua explore step three of Joshua’s framework: learning from past negotiations in a way that is meaningful and contextually appropriate. Aram introduces a quote from Catherine Bartle—“When you’ve seen one negotiation, you’ve seen one negotiation”—which Joshua describes as jarring but deeply insightful. The quote serves as a powerful reminder that each negotiation is unique, and thus, the lessons we extract from one cannot always be applied wholesale to another.

Furthermore, Joshua highlights that while learning from experience is crucial, it’s equally important to question what specific lessons are genuinely applicable to new situations. He recounts an interaction with someone who claimed to have learned great lessons from a failed negotiation. 

However, upon further probing, it became clear that those lessons had not been deeply examined. The individual had remained at a surface level, failing to critically assess the situation in a way that could yield meaningful insights for future use.

This example illustrates the danger of superficial reflection. Joshua points out that without digging deeper—beyond initial impressions—we risk misapplying lessons or even carrying forward flawed assumptions. In the case he described, the person ultimately realized that what he thought would help him in an upcoming negotiation might have actually been counterproductive.

The core message here is that while experience is a valuable teacher, it only becomes truly effective through careful, critical reflection. Lessons must be thoughtfully unpacked, analyzed in their specific context, and then considered for relevance in new scenarios. 

Joshua uses Bartle’s quote to remind listeners that learning from negotiations is not about applying a formula. Instead, it’s about understanding nuances, being cautious with generalizations, and committing to deeper levels of reflection to drive real growth.

Replacing Limiting Beliefs With Intentional Strategies For More Empowered Outcomes

Next, Joshua delves into step four of his negotiation framework: unlearning one’s weaknesses and default approaches to negotiation. He introduces the concept of active unlearning, distinguishing it from the more passive, accidental kind. Active unlearning is a deliberate, introspective process that involves examining long-held beliefs and behaviors, understanding their origins, and consciously replacing them with more effective strategies.

Joshua emphasizes that many people approach negotiation with ingrained assumptions—such as the belief that compromise is inherently synonymous with effective negotiation or that the other party is automatically an adversary. 

Through a tool he refers to as the “weakness chart,” individuals are encouraged to ask three critical questions: What do I need to unlearn? How did I learn it? And what should I replace it with? This chart is designed to promote deep introspection and challenge the internal narratives that may be shaping—and limiting—someone’s negotiation style.

The unlearning process, according to Joshua, is intensely personal. It demands looking inward and recognizing that our most difficult negotiation opponent is often ourselves. He cites his colleague William Ury’s book Getting to Yes With Yourself to reinforce the idea that internal conflict and self-limiting beliefs are often the greatest barriers to successful outcomes. 

By understanding and rewriting the story, we tell ourselves about negotiation—what it is, how it should be done, and what success looks like—negotiators can open the door to more productive mindsets and more adaptive behaviors.

Ultimately, Joshua advocates replacing outdated or unproductive tactics with more thoughtful, reflective alternatives. This might mean moving beyond habitual compromise to strategies that better align with one’s goals and values. As individuals begin to see and address the internal obstacles that hinder their performance, they set themselves on a path toward more effective and empowered negotiation outcomes.

How Emotional Clarity, Initiative & Adaptive Strategy Help Negotiators Re-Engage With Confidence After Setbacks

In the final step of his negotiation framework, step five, returning to the table with confidence, Joshua explains how this phase builds on all the introspective work completed in the previous steps. According to him, the confidence to re-engage in negotiation authentically and effectively is not based on bravado or over-preparation—it emerges from deep self-awareness, emotional resilience, and a willingness to take initiative.

He begins by addressing the discomfort many people feel with negotiation dynamics, particularly the uncertainties and emotional nuances involved. A major hurdle, Joshua explains, is the inability to think on one’s feet. Many of his students and clients express fear of improvising or deviating from a structured plan. 

Rather than allowing that mindset to persist, he works with them to understand the underlying mental blocks and gradually build adaptability. This skill—flexibility in thought and emotional awareness—is vital for successful negotiations, especially when returning to a previously failed or stalled discussion.

Joshua then shifts to a crucial concept: initiative. Too often, people wait for the other party to make the first move. He urges negotiators to proactively reopen the dialogue, regardless of previous friction. 

Using Nelson Mandela’s example—emerging from 27 years in prison and initiating dialogue with those who imprisoned him—Joshua underscores that taking the first step is not about condoning past behavior. It’s about taking action for yourself to pursue your objectives and growth.

When returning to the table, Joshua advises doing something different. This may mean adjusting your persuasive strategies based on your earlier analysis. For example, if previous efforts were overly focused on logic and data, but the other party’s concerns were rooted in emotion—such as fear or mistrust—it’s critical to shift tactics. Empathy, storytelling, and acknowledging emotional realities can open new pathways that pure logic cannot.

He also encourages negotiators to identify any progress or small gains made in earlier interactions. These can become building blocks for re-establishing connection and trust. However, he acknowledges that not all negotiations can be revived. In particularly painful or damaging cases, returning to the table may not be possible. 

Here, he brings in the metaphor of Kintsugi—the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery with gold—to illustrate how even irreparable failures can be transformed into valuable learning. The pain becomes part of one’s negotiation identity, a visible reminder that feeds resilience and reinforces a commitment to improvement.

Ultimately, step five is about approaching negotiations with tactical readiness and renewed emotional clarity, strategic insight, and the courage to try again—better equipped and more grounded than before.

Accept Failure As Fuel: Why Embracing Struggle and Self-Confrontation Is Essential For Growth In Negotiation And Beyond

In the episode’s closing moments, Aram invites Joshua to share one final thought or challenge for listeners. He encourages those looking to grow from their past negotiation mistakes and develop as more skillful influencers to accept failure as a necessary step in the learning process. Joshua responds with a powerful message centered on the transformative power of struggle and self-confrontation.

He explains that real learning—whether in life or negotiation—doesn’t happen during easy, smooth experiences. It happens when we’re challenged, stretched, and forced to grapple with difficulty. It’s in these uncomfortable, uncertain moments that we come face-to-face with who we are, how we behave under pressure, and where we can improve. Joshua urges listeners not to shy away from these tough experiences but to lean into them as the most fertile ground for growth.

He believes that if individuals are willing to put in the time, effort, and emotional investment, the result is not just technical improvement but also a deeper sense of personal alignment and calm at the negotiation table. This process leads to a place where negotiators become more self-aware, emotionally grounded, and resilient, understanding their own triggers and tendencies and approaching challenges with clarity rather than fear of failure.

His final takeaway is clear: mastery in negotiation doesn’t come from avoiding mistakes—it comes from owning them, learning from them, and using them to fuel ongoing growth. With this mindset, negotiation becomes not just a skill but a path toward greater confidence, competence, and authenticity.

Joshua, Aram, and Nolan discuss more on this episode of the NEGOTIATEx Podcast. Write to us at team@negotiatex.com and share your thoughts on the episode. Also, we’d be thrilled if you rated us on Apple Podcasts to help us grow and improve.

Thank you for your time!

Transcript

Nolan Martin :

Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx Podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Dr. Joshua Weiss. If you haven’t already checked out part A of the show, be sure to do that first. Let’s jump into the conversation with Josh. 

NM :

That’s a high level overview of all the steps. Now I think, kind of, wanna dig into the framework in each step a little bit more. I know that you said that step two in your process, analyzing what went wrong can be easier said than done. 

From experience, I know it can often be difficult for many reasons to pinpoint the exact problem and even more challenging to take ourselves on and consider our contributions. How do you advise doing this well, and what are the forest and trees questions that you describe? 

How Honest Self-Reflection & Post-Failure Analysis Lead To Stronger, Smarter Decisions [00:46]

Joshua Weiss :

So, I think the only way to really do this well is to be honest about yourself. I remember one of my failures. I was talking to somebody and they said, don’t take this the wrong way, but as soon as you realize you’re not nearly as important as you think you are you’re gonna be able to handle this a lot better.

And that’s always stuck with me. The reality is that most people, like we live in a world where people move on very fast and all you have to do is look around and see, you know, the speed with which people forget things and whatever, right? So I think the first thing is to just maybe give yourself a little bit of a break.

Be like, okay, like this happened. I get it. Like it’s part of the deal. Like it wasn’t my goal, but I’m here now and if I don’t. If I don’t learn from it, then I’m, there’s nothing I can do. And honestly, I would ask yourself like, if I really want to get better at this, like I have to be able to grapple with it.

And so it’s not magic, it’s just perhaps understanding that, again, your ego is sometimes your biggest enemy. And I think you need to learn to say, okay, I’m gonna let this go a bit and not battle it, but I’m gonna try to listen to it. And then I think, on the analysis piece as I said, I think one of the important things is to really figure out what was the big picture happening here?

And like why didn’t this work? Did you, for example, agree to something that really didn’t make much sense and why? I remember years ago one of my first jobs as a consultant was to come in and a CEO of a small company called me and said, Hey, I need you to come in and find out why my sales team is coming back with all these bad agreements that are downers for the company.

And I was like, okay. So I go and meet with the sales team. I’m like, why would you do that? This isn’t profitable. And there were six of them, and they, to a person, they said because our metric is not to come back without an agreement. Nobody said anything about a good agreement. It’s just don’t come back.

And if we didn’t, if we came back without an agreement, like we would get grilled and whatever. So in that instance, people weren’t recognizing the type of failure that they were engaging in because they were reaching agreement. And by the way, as you guys know, it’s not hard to reach agreement if I give you everything.

We reach agreement. That’s not hard. What’s hard is reaching an agreement that meets your goals and interests, right? Negotiation is one process for meeting our objectives, right? There are others, and maybe, there’s times when you ought to look at something and say, does negotiation make the most sense here or not?

But I think what’s interesting to me is that I don’t know how many people really go back and say, where did things go off the rails? In this particular negotiation, like very specifically. You know, what happened here and what was my response, right? Could I have perhaps responded differently?

And what would that have looked like and why would that have been effective? That kind of an analysis. I know you guys in the military, you do your sort of post mission analysis, right? Especially if things, if you ran into a problem or things like that. And I think that’s what you’re doing here is you’re trying to get granular and say was there a critical moment? Was there a specific interchange where this person insulted me and I took the bait and I didn’t pull myself back and say, I shouldn’t talk right now. I should try to figure out what to do with this. 

So, that’s the idea, and I think that when people start to get into that, you begin to recognize those situations, and I think going forward it helps you to recognize them when you’re in them again, right? To be like, huh, now I’m a little more aware of this interchange, and maybe I ought to just pull back for a minute before I respond and think about if this is the best response. 

Aram Donigian :

Yeah. That leads us into step three very naturally because you quote Catherine Bartle as saying when you’ve seen one negotiation, you’ve seen one negotiation. So given what you were just saying, okay. And given that no two negotiations are ever exactly identical, how do we ensure that we learn and apply the correct lessons? 

Why Surface-Level Lessons Fail & Deeper Reflection Drives True Growth [05:17]

JW :

Yeah, so I think the nice thing about the Bardal quote is it’s a jarring one. Like every time I tell people they’re like “Oh.” I think it’s, there’s a truism there to build off of is why I included it, right? Because it’s okay, if I’m starting from the notion that, no, when you see one negotiation, you’ve seen one negotiation, then I start to say, okay, then what’s so different about this one? And what can I genuinely apply from the last negotiation that’s gonna help me here?

As I said, I would sit with people and talk to them, and I remember one guy and he said to me, he’s that negotiation didn’t go well but really great lessons. And I was like I had listened to him and I didn’t really hear great lessons and I was like. Can you maybe elaborate?

I’m not sure I understand what the lesson was that you are talking about. He’s this, and I was like what does that mean? And so the more I peeled the layers of the onion in the back, he was like, okay, now I’m getting what you’re saying. Which is that I really hadn’t examined this in the kind of depth that I really needed to.

I was staying at a pretty superficial level and in that instance, he was wanting to think about how to prepare for an upcoming negotiation. And I said, do you still think that what you did there fits and is gonna help you in this next negotiation? And he was like, now that I’ve done this, no, I don’t actually, it probably would’ve led me astray.

So that’s the idea. And so I think, but I think the bardal quote is a good level set to say, okay, if that’s the case, and it’s not so easy to transfer lessons, what can I really transfer here in a way that actually does make some good sense? 

NM :

No, I love that. Step four is unlearning our weaknesses or natural approach to negotiating. How does the unlearning cycle and a weakness chart help someone increase their introspection, adjust their mindset, and behave differently at the negotiation table all to hopefully achieve a better outcome?

Active Unlearning: Challenging Assumptions & Rewriting Your Internal Narrative To Negotiate More Effectively [07:16]

JW :

And one of the things that I try to actually be very clear about is what I’m talking about is active unlearning. Like we can all ad hoc unlearn something, right? We can just stumble into it and be like, oh, okay. I should probably not do that. But when you actively unlearn, you are saying let me really think about my approach to negotiation, and do I think that everything I’ve learned and how did I learn it?

In that chart that you talk about, I say, what is it you need to unlearn? How did you learn that? And then what do you want to replace it with? So I’m hoping to get people to go, why is it that I think compromise is synonymous with negotiation? Or why is it that I see the other negotiator as my adversary?

Or whatever it is, right? Whatever that notion is that you feel like is a pillar of your approach to negotiation. How did you learn that? And is it still serving your purposes? Is it still helping you to get where you want to go, or are you recognizing maybe. For example, with compromise that you’re coming up with less than optimal solutions and maybe there’s a better way to do that.

So that’s why, and again, I think part of what you’re noticing with the steps in the book is that I’m turning the mirror on people pretty heavily here and because I think this is largely an internal process that we are going through. My colleague William Ury wrote a book, everybody knows, “Getting to Yes.”

But a few years ago he wrote a book called “Getting to Yes With Yourself.” And it was all about sometimes the hardest negotiator that you have to deal with is the person staring you back in the mirror. And I think this picks up on the notion, but it gets you to reflect even more on what’s my narrative?

What’s my story about negotiation? Why do I hold it and is it helping me? As I’ve pushed people to do this, they’re like, I’m noticing some things that I really think are holding me back and that might put them, push them down a road of pursuing the avenue of what could I replace compromise with? Or what would supersede this if I were to change my way of thinking? 

AD :

So Josh, as a follow up here, because I love how you’ve laid out step four in, in great detail. Turning the mirror on oneself is so uncomfortable. You’re asking me to be honest with myself to maybe recognize that role model examples I’ve had in the past may not be the best. My ego might be getting in the way. My desire to control the situation, the other person. Metrics that I just assume or go, you go in and say, obviously I got, those are the metrics. I might want to question all this for the point of active unlearning.

Even my narrative, my story in which I’m always the hero of my story. Man, as I think about clients you work with, students you work with beyond the chart, do you have just can you share an activity you do to create for somebody that disoriented dilemma to really look inward? Anything you do there?

Why Storytelling, Honest Reflection & Self-Awareness Make You A More Authentic Negotiator [10:25] 

JW :

You know, honestly for me, one of the most helpful things is to ask people about a situation where things didn’t go well. Then to be able to pull it apart that way and to say, okay, so this didn’t go well, so let’s talk about what happened. And I’ll be like, just tell me the story of what happened.

And I think when people go down that road, and I think this is one of the great benefits of stories, is that they’re relatable, right? And somehow there’s also a way of describing them in such a way where you don’t have to always look so bad, right? And so I think that’s what I tend to do. And I say, and I also try to say, look.

Not all of this fell to you. Not all of this fell to the other person. Not all of it fell to dynamics that are out of your hands. That’s the mix. And typically it’s how it’s gonna be. I also believe very strongly that we have to be who we are as negotiators. Like we’re each human beings in a certain way, right?

Like we are who we are and the best negotiators that I know are the ones who are most comfortable in their own skin. They’re not trying to be somebody they’re not trying to, fake it till you make it and all that kind of stuff. And so I think this process is designed in that way. And, I’m pretty clear with people that what I’m asking you to do here is not easy, but it’s also the pathway to being better and better, because you’re not gonna be surprised you’re not gonna question yourself nearly as much when you’ve done that kind of examination, right? 

You’re gonna be like, I know why I do this and it’s something that I have to work on, or it’s, maybe it’s serving my purposes or not serving members, whatever it might be, right? But in general, I think if you go through this process, there’s no way that you don’t come out understanding yourself a whole lot better. 

AD :

Which leads to the confidence that you’re gonna talk about in step five. For me, how I show up as a negotiator, so what are the elements of returning to the table, which is step five, what we’re aiming for, with this degree of confidence and doing so in a way that is authentic and effective. 

How Resilience, Initiative & Emotional Awareness Revive Stalled Negotiations [12:35]

JW :

Yeah I think one of the things, again, that’s really important here is to think about, so build on all that, those first four steps. But then I think importantly, there are dynamics in negotiation that we are all uncomfortable with and we have to figure out what those are. And as I said before, you know the ones that are the most common that I see time and again are uncertainty and the ability to be flexible and adaptable in your mindset. I try to tackle those, I try to give people a different way of thinking about that. With my students, when they say to me, listen, I’m a planner. I can’t, I don’t think on my feet. I can’t do that, so what else am I gonna do? I’m like, you’re gonna learn to do it anyways and we’re gonna figure out where’s the block? Why can’t you think on your feet? What is it? Let’s talk about why you struggle with that. And so we begin to parse that out, right?

I think those dynamics and being comfortable with the emotional side of negotiation, which most people aren’t, are some of the keys that I really try to highlight there. But then I flip over and I say, let’s imagine now that you want to get back to the table that you can imagine a way back, what are you gonna do?

You gotta do something different, right? So the first thing is, you can’t wait for the other side to come to you. You have to go knock on the door first ’cause you could end up waiting the rest of your life for somebody to knock on your door and they’re never going to, so the first thing is take the initiative, and I use the example of Nelson Mandela basically spends 27 years in prison.

If you can come out and go talk to the clerk, I think you can shrug off whatever insult it was that came through, and you do it for yourself, by the way, that’s an important piece of this, which is, because somebody will, people often say what if they’re a jerk? I’m like, okay, I get it. Like you’re gonna deal with jerks and difficult people in negotiation. You do this for yourself. You don’t do it for them. You’re trying to achieve your objective, right? 

So open the door and say, hey, we need to do this. But then you have to say, again, go back to your analysis in the previous steps. What didn’t work here? For example, I talk a little bit about when we try to be persuasive, which we know how important that is in negotiation. Were you barking up the wrong tree? Was this person, you were, you’re more of a data logic kind of guy. Were they identifying a problem that was actually much more about pathos, like about the emotional, like a fear, a concern, a worry, and did you miss the boat there?

And if you did, maybe you dive back in by trying to share a story and trying to empathize with their fear or their worry or their concern that they have. So you have to do, you can’t, you can’t do the same thing and expect different results, right? So you have to do something a little bit different when you get back to the table that’s gonna change things up.

And you want to think. What were the gains that we made? Were there things to build off of that you can also empathize? And so that’s the idea of getting back to the table in that moment. And the reality again is that sometimes we have negotiations where it’s not happening. The offense has been so bad, the hurt has been so painful that people aren’t getting back to the table.

And in that instance, we go back to the Kintsugi thing and we say, what can I really learn from this painful negotiation so that I don’t experience it again? How can I in some ways wear that on my sleeves so that I remember how painful it is and that, that feeds my resilience.

That pain of not wanting to experience that again pushes me down the road of saying, let me really learn from this and recognize perhaps when some of those dynamics are at play again. 

AD :

Josh, could we apply this to a situation that I know was probably in the forefront of many people’s minds right now, which is the recent blowup in the Oval Office between President Trump and President Zelensky. And, can they get back to the table? If they can and in a world in which I could wave my magic wand and let you be an advisor to them, which I wish I could make happen ’cause they could really benefit from some of your insights. Can they do that? Can they get back to the table?

Why Power, BATNA & Creative Problem-Solving Define The Future Of High-Stakes Negotiation [16:41]

JW :

I think they can. I think there’s, I mean there are a lot of nuances, right? And we could talk about this for the next five hours. I think you’ve actually already seen yesterday Zelensky reached out and said, we’re very grateful to the United States. We have this mineral deal, let’s get it done. So that was the knocking on the door, right?

Trump wasn’t gonna do that. We know he’s not gonna do that. His ego is gonna get in the way. Sorry. But that’s the reality. And I’m not gonna get political, but he was never going to reach back out to Zelensky and say, Hey maybe we should have done that differently. That wasn’t gonna happen. So we knew it was gonna fall to Zelensky to do.

So he did that. Now the question becomes. Again, when you get back to the table, you still have a goal and objective here. So for Zelensky, he spent the last three years, plus years going back, to 2014 with Crimea and other places thinking about this and seeing these challenges on the ground engaging in a brutal war, right?

And so at the moment what’s being asked of him is to essentially give up a lot of stuff without a whole lot in return. And that is not a negotiation that’s capitulation, right? So the question becomes less so can they get back to the table, which is, I think they’re moving in that direction, right?

I think that part of this has been initiated. I think the question then becomes. What would some negotiated agreement look like? Because right now, the Trump administration has changed their approach and they have basically said, here are the things that Ukraine needs to do in order to achieve peace.

And it’s effectively most of the things that they’ve been fighting for three plus years and many people have died for. So I think the negotiation itself is much less clear in terms of what kind of progress they can make. There’s no question that power plays a really important role here, and BATNA analysis plays a really important role here.

I think that after this meeting when Zelensky went back to Europe and they had a summit, et cetera. I think there was a very clear idea of trying to put some distance between themselves and the United States and to seeing if they had a BATNA in Europe, that Europe could step forward.

My guess is, based on what I’m witnessing, is that in that analysis, they realized that it was not gonna be able to work the way they wanted it to, which is why Zelensky, a day or two later came out and said these things. I think what he’s going to try to do though within that context is put a little bit of distance between himself and the United States, become less reliant on the US and Europe’s already stepped forward.

They’ve actually provided more financial resources in the United States over the course of the war. Like I said, for me the biggest question is what would an ultimate deal look like? And, the sort of, the way in which things have been laid out right now and are anchoring the conversation, there’s gonna have to be some creative thinking about how you get around, the territory. Because right now, as I understand it, it’s, give up the territory that’s been lost, refuse to join NATO or take the joining of NATO off the table and some other things.

And in essence, those are really difficult things to do after people have died and sacrificed their life to do the exact opposite. So I think we’re at a place where I think they’re getting back to the table, but they’re gonna need a lot of creativity to move out of what appear to be very zero sum positional kind of approaches.

AD :

Yeah. Thanks for those thoughts. And we’ll continue to monitor the situation before this airs. And I just wanna encourage folks. I enjoy, Josh, your posts on LinkedIn where you share what I consider to be non-biased, non-political assessments of just real world events. So, for listeners follow Josh on, on LinkedIn and just, see some ideas that are coming out from the frameworks we’ve been discussing. 

JW :

Thank you. I try, look, we all have our biases and I’m not professing to not, but I do try to do my best to say what’s going on here from a “professional point of view.” And to try to think about it from a negotiation problem solving perspective. If you’re in the room what would you do? 

NM :

Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Now that we have a clear understanding of the five steps and hopefully Zelensky Trump getting back to the table, I’m curious, if in your research and writing did you find yourself reflecting on a particular failed negotiation from your own life? And perhaps discovered a new path forward?

How Personal Convictions & Missteps Shape The Negotiator You Become [21:53]

JW :

Yeah, there were a lot of them. And I think each one of them shaped me in a way that I had not really thought about, maybe as deeply as I did as I was thinking about this book. And one of them had to do with being hired with a consulting agency. That was a really good deal. But they, it was, I live out in Western Massachusetts, about an hour and a half from Boston, and they wanted me to come in every day when that doesn’t even include traffic kind of thing.

And my kids were younger and I said, look, I’m just not prepared to do that. And the negotiation fell apart and I didn’t get the job. And I later learned that I think there was a misunderstanding or misperception. We didn’t dig in, we didn’t clarify in the way that we needed to.

But there was also, for me, a non-negotiable, which is, my kids were young. I was not prepared to be an absentee father. I wanted to be there and be part of their childhood. And that was something that, I was very clear that I would rather walk away than, but I realized actually that there were some opportunities to perhaps do things a little bit differently there that would’ve worked. 

I also, in some of the work that I’ve done overseas, like some back channel negotiation work. I think one of the challenges that I’ve experienced and where I’ve failed is that, sometimes it’s very hard to get these ideas that you come up with a group of participants from the conflict into the decision makers minds and to help them to really grapple with that.

So there’s some of those for sure where we spent a lot of time working on and coming up with some really good ideas and yet have decision makers fail to negotiate effectively with decision makers to get them to see the merits of what we had done and why it would be helpful.

AD :

I think it’s interesting for a listener to hear that even a master negotiator can get better and can admit to failures, right? And how you learn from those. As before, we’ve covered a lot of ground today, Josh, so thank you for that. I’ve got two, two last questions here. I’ve written a book about negotiation successes. 

You’ve written one about negotiation failures. So what are you twiddling on in your mind? What’s the next book gonna be?

Bringing America’s Pivotal Moments To Life Through A New Interpretive Lens [24:07] 

JW :

It’s interesting you say that. So I’m toying with the idea of, so I was a history major in college. There you go. I think it takes us down this road in some ways, right? So I, one of the things that I’ve seen, like with my own kids and things along those lines is that they don’t. They never enjoyed history. They never learned it in a way that I felt was actually interesting. It was all dates, facts, these people died in this war, that kind of thing.

And it wasn’t really that interesting, like they’d be like, dad, this is boring. I’m like, okay, your teacher’s not teaching you in a way that makes this interesting. ’cause history is interesting. It’s the story of how we got where we are. So what I would actually like to do, and what I’m contemplating is that I want to go back to the six or seven most formative dimensions of history of the United States history within the United States, not with other countries, but look at those things from the lens of negotiation and to talk about them as negotiations and to help people to understand the important role that negotiation has played throughout history. 

So the constitutional convention and maybe MLK’s negotiation with Lyndon Johnson around the Civil Rights Movement. Those are all negotiations and we don’t view them that way. So my hope is that that I’ll probably head down that road and that maybe this will be an accompaniment to a textbook or something like that with a little more, almost the book of real world negotiation, that kind of color, more case study, aspects of this. 

AD :

Oh man. I’m gonna put my egghead on now and say, Josh you wanna be a partner in that? I’m in. We can throw in the miserable compromises leading up to the Civil War too. Alright, I’m in if you wanna, if you wanna arrange your buddy in that. 

Alright, let’s get to the next question, which is what our listeners really want to hear, which is, what’s your final thought or challenge that you might leave with listeners hoping to learn from their past negotiation mistakes to become more skillful influencers.

Why Grappling With Challenge Is The Path To Mastery In Negotiation [26:18]

JW :

You know, I think for me the old saying, we all learn about ourselves and about other people not in the good times and in the bad times. In the times where we’re really challenged and we’re confronted with things and how do we act and how do we behave? And I think this is the same kind of dynamic that this is the place where, I think the most rewarding learning is where you actually push up against something and you have to grapple with it and deal with it. It’s hard, it’s uncomfortable, but it is the way that you become better. 

And if you can battle through this and really work with it, that’s the promise at the end of the sort of rainbow here is that if you go through all of this, you will learn to get more and more comfortable with negotiation itself and you as a negotiator, as part of this whole picture, the more you do, the more you know yourself, the better you are at the table. You’re gonna just be, you’re gonna have a sense of calm and collectiveness because you’re not gonna be surprised.

You’re gonna know those things that trigger you, et cetera, et cetera. So, I think that’s the biggest thing is, put in the time, effort, and the skin in the game, if you will. And in the end it will reward you. 

AD :

Absolutely. Josh, thanks so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure again and we’ll look forward to having you on again when the next one comes out.

NM :

Well, that is it for us on today’s podcast. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the NEGOTIATEx Podcast and we’ll see you in the next episode.

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