Nolan Martin :
Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on The NEGOTIATEx Podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Chris Wong, owner, executive coach, and consultant of Leadership Potential. If you haven’t already checked out part A of the show, be sure to do that first. Let’s jump with the conversation with Chris.
NM :
We have this saying in the military that no plan survives first contact, but we go through this very in-depth planning process and most likely it’s not gonna go how we intend, but it helps us be able to figure it out on the fly ’cause we at least thought through different ideas or different things. So I’m assuming that same kind of mentality is effective here.
Chris Wong :
Yeah, I use a Mike Tyson quote, “everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
NM :
Perfect.
Aram Donigian :
So you talked about practice. I’m curious, do you encourage a rehearsal or a role play before having this or not? Does that reinforce a negative framing of what might happen? Or does it actually help you find those word that might be helpful?
Mastering High-Stakes Conversations: The Power Of Role Play & Practice [00:56]
CW :
I do suggest. The more contentious you think it’ll be or the more high stakes you think it’s gonna be? I do suggest a role play or practice, whatever you wanna call it, but you gotta practice it. Cause I think when you say words out loud, your brain processes it differently than when you just think about the words.
And so you need to hear them out loud ’cause you need to hear the phrasing. Every time I do a hard conversation, that’s gonna be high stakes or a phone call where I know I’m leaving a voicemail message, anything. Or a webinar or a presentation, I will walk around my house just saying everything out loud.
’cause I need to hear it. Does it sound right? And I’ll edit. Lots of times I actually encourage a very focused practice. I don’t, I never say, let’s practice the entire conversation. I always say the first, number one, before we even get into it, the first minute or two, just vent. Say what you really are thinking about the other person, if you’re angry at them or whatever.
Vent. Yell at them, curse at them, swear. And I feel it, and I’ve found that the first one or two minutes is really a great pressure relief. It gets all that stuff out of their head, and then they don’t have to feel that way. They don’t have to feel like they’re holding it back. Any more than two minutes, I find them, they’re just venting and they just start amping themselves up even more. But one or two minutes is fine. When we role play, just do a couple minutes at a time, right? Because then you can really go back and say, what did I do in this part that made that worked? What do I wanna switch? And then we move on.
But I feel like breaking it up, just like I use football analogies a lot, right? Throughout the week, they’re not practicing the entire game. They’re practicing very specific plays throughout, and then they’ll do a walkthrough at the end, but they’re doing very specific plays every single time because they need to practice this specific routine or walkthrough.
NM :
I love that. What I think we’ve noticed is when people over prepare, where they’re trying to memorize everything that they’re gonna say. Then it just, nothing lands because they aren’t listening. They aren’t actually taking into account the conversation that’s happening. Yeah.
AD :
Yeah. It feels like there’s this balance between being well prepared but also trying to be natural. I was thinking about, as you’re talking Chris, I’m thinking about the voicemail example. I don’t know why that one always catches me off guard, but I’m never ready to leave a voicemail. Every time I leave a message with someone, I butcher it. It never says what I was supposed to, what I was trying to say.
CW :
That’s right.
NM :
My wife always hears me when I do that. It’s like what did you just say? That’s not at all what we talked about. I’m like, Ugh, sorry. I cracked. Cracked under pressure
AD :
On preparation, one more thing. All everything you mentioned, thinking about what your goals are. Thinking about the mindset that I’m carrying in here, thinking about the first words I might speak, how important is it in preparation to take some time and just consider where the other person is, whether it’s on the issue or it’s where they’re emotionally. Do you do any of that?
How Understanding Processing Differences Can Enhance Your Conversations & Persuasion [03:34]
CW :
Yeah, that’s part of it too. That’s part of, one of the things I would also do is, I have a whole workflow figuring out what’s their communication style, what’s their processing style? You know, for instance, one of the things that catches people is are there an internal processor or an external processor? So external processor is like me, I need to talk things out to think out loud. If you have somebody like that. It may sound like they’re disagreeing with you at first, but really they’re just thinking through the process.
Their gears are turning out loud in their head versus like an internal processor where they need to think through it. It may feel like they’re disengaged. It may feel like they’re not listening to you, but they are. They’re really just thinking through it in their head, all the stuff that’s going on. If you’re the same style, then it makes it easier.
You understand what’s happening right away intuitively, but if you’re the opposite style, then you’re gonna misinterpret their behavior. And so it’s really thinking through what is their communication style and if you wanna persuade them of something, what’s their motivation?
What’s their interest here? What’s something they need or how are they viewing the situation? How am I contributing to this conflict or the situation? And how are they contributing and how flexible can I be in this to show them that I’m part of the process?
AD :
A key part of preparation and certainly being able to get into someone else’s shoes is being able to get insights from another person. Sometimes a colleague, somebody, maybe somebody senior to us. You’ve built leadership and organizational development programs from the ground up, including formal mentorship initiatives. As we think about mentorship, in your experience, what makes a mentorship program truly effective?
Balancing Roles & Aligning Goals Between Mentor & Mentee [04:57]
CW :
I’ve seen lots of different styles of mentorship. I think it’s preparing the mentors and the mentees for what to expect outta the process. I think the training at the beginning is so helpful and it sounds weird, like you have to train to be a mentor or mentee, but it’s helpful to just have structure around what that process looks like. And I’ve talked to lots of senior leaders who are more than happy to be a mentor and the first thing, they say to me yes, I’d be more than happy to be a mentor, but I don’t really know how to be a mentor or what to do or what to say.
I say, I got you. Don’t worry. And so we just go through a process of this is what it looks like to be a mentor. This is how you guide the conversation. This is how you give feedback. You know, it’s not a very long process. It’s like a two hour training or just an orientation. You can call it that. But it’s helpful to just get that for both sides so the mentees know what to expect outta the conversation, what goals to bring in, how to ask questions, and the more you can just provide structure for them, that’s helpful.
You don’t have to, I’ve found success in, you don’t have to structure every single meeting or how many times they meet or what that looks like. That should be up to them, but them knowing how to do the process is invaluable.
AD :
In your sense, where’s, is it equal responsibility for mentor and mentee in that relationship to kinda achieve the aims of that mentorship or does more fall on the mentee to drive some of the things you’re just, you’re sharing there?
CW :
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think philosophically, I think it’s just equal, it’s a equal relationship. I think there are some things that the mentee should drive more. Like, they should be driving a lot of the process, the priorities and things like that. But the mentor should also be part of driving the process in terms of following up, being responsive, giving appropriate feedback, making introductions, and also just making sure that if the mentee’s not following up on certain things.
The mentor should feel empowered to say, last time I assigned you this book, or I gave you this book to read and you said you would, you still haven’t done it. Three months have passed now, you know, what’s getting in the way here. Like the mentor should feel empowered to also follow up and check in and hold people accountable to the process.
AD :
And can a mentor be somebody who’s in our direct kind of chain of command or food chain or is it better when that’s someone off and maybe offers a different perspective?
CW :
That’s a good question. I was trying to think back to the research I did when I first started. I think it doesn’t matter if it’s the same role, I think it really more matters what the mentee’s goals are. If the mentee’s goals are something like in their line. Like, if it’s a first time they just got into the workforce and they want to be VP of operations and it just, or COO, so it just happens to be in their line, then it makes sense for their mentor to be somebody in that role. Like it’s really more what’s the mentee’s goals and experiences and where does it line up and match up the most.
NM :
Are there unique challenges that nonprofit leaders face when it comes to difficult conversations with boards, donors and staff? What negotiation or conflict resolution strategies do you find most valuable for nonprofit executives?
Addressing Common People Problems Across Different Sectors [07:43]
CW :
I think that they think their situations are very unique. I find that across every industry that I’ve ever worked in. Maybe you find this too, is every industry says nobody understands our work. I need to work with somebody that’s done our specific job and role in life. And people, problems are people problems, right?
Somebody doesn’t wanna do work, and I had a friend that was in the Air Force and he also had struggle with somebody not doing their work correctly or appropriately. And I’m sure you’ve run into that too. Like everywhere. People just, it’s hard to motivate people. You need to just figure out what motivates them.
And then so people are just have their own stuff. They bring into the work, and so I think nonprofit leaders think their situations are different, and certainly the context of how they do the work is different, but the people’s problems are still the same. How do you get people engaged, whether they’re employees or volunteers?
I actually found that to be very similar too. I thought it would be different as well. When I first started, I thought. ’cause volunteers aren’t paid, it takes a little bit different, but I find that it’s actually very similar conversations you get. If you have a good engaged and thriving culture among volunteers, they’re gonna work just as hard as your employees.
And likewise, even employees, you pay them, they could still just not be doing the work correctly or slacking off or not wanting to do the job. So it’s still the same. And so it’s really about how do you connect with people. How do you motivate people? How do you collaborate? How do you create an environment where they trust you? You have that credibility and you trust them?
And that’s all the same, is how do you deal with people.
NM :
I love that.
AD :
Nolan, it reminds me of when we’ll go in and do a session, and it could be with a group of Navy Seals, it could be a group of MBA students, it could be a group of non-profit executives, and you ask ’em, who do you have these difficult conversations or negotiations with over what sorts of things and what makes ’em challenging?
The who and the what. That context specific stuff that Chris, that you’re talking about, might be different, right? It might be nuanced to your industry but what you said, people problems are people problems, right? It still comes down to perceptions and different goals and personalities and sometimes, physical constraints and resources, right?
And oftentimes those deal with people again, right? Past histories, relationships, all those things seem to be somewhat universal.
NM :
It goes on to the, and I mentioned this before, but a supplier and vendor relationship where they’re like, oh, the supplier has all the power. No, all the vendor has all the power cause they’re a sole source supplier. It’s always, the other person has all the power. They’re both in the same situation and they both don’t think that they’re in power. Yeah.
AD :
So Chris, I’d love if possible to ask you a few very specific situations and maybe get your advice at how what we’ve been discussing kind of applies in these contexts.
So first of all, how about when you’re dealing with a truly difficult person. We often like to say, it’s easy to assume someone is crazy, evil, stupid. And we know those people do exist. They’re not often the time, they’re not frequently the people we’re talking to though. But in cases there are truly difficult people. They’re defensive, they’re dismissive, misleading, they’re aggressive. How do you apply this with someone like that?
The Importance Of Ground Rules In Managing Conflict [10:37]
CW :
Yeah. So part of it is thinking about the ground rules, as I said at the beginning, is thinking about, you setting the ground rules of being able to be honest or stay calm or whatever. And it’s not that they will always prevent all those types of behaviors, it’s that you have more ammunition to pull back to saying, hey, you agreed to this structure at the beginning.
And you can start exploring from there what’s going on for them. And part of that is personality difference. Like I, if you feel comfortable in these, in conflict or in intense emotions, that it’s really about reflecting. Asking about what’s going on, spending time in those emotions or that behavior, and trying to dig deep what’s driving that behavior and bringing it out into the open as we talked about earlier.
And so that’s what I would always recommend. If you feel comfortable, explore, figure out what’s going on. If you’re not, if you need to take a break, if that’s a boundary for you, say. Put it in your ground rules. Say if things get outta hand, if we start getting disrespectful towards one another, let’s just take a break.
Let’s come back, because I know that it’s a hard conversation for both of us, so let’s come back to it. But yeah, I think it’s also just thinking about what’s your own personal style and your personality.
AD :
How about shifting to a different scenario, conversations regarding organizational change, particularly change that feels overwhelming for almost everyone that’s involved.
Perhaps, it’s a leadership or it’s a policy change. Or it’s addressing problems with the current company culture.
The Role Of Transparency & Personal Engagement In Overcoming Resistance [11:54]
CW :
Yeah, so that’s a big question because I think that depends. That’s a very broad question in terms of who you’re talking to, and then what stage of the change you’re in. Because I always, when I’m talking to leaders, I’m recommending that from the beginning, before you even start the change, you should be already transparent about what’s going on and doing that storytelling so that people can start thinking about, oh, there is a need to change.
Otherwise, if they don’t see a need to change, then of course they’re just gonna keep fighting it. But if they see the need to change. Then they’re gonna be more empowered to think about it. And then you can facilitate that conversation of what does that change look like for you? What are your concerns?
How could that look? And then you’re just guiding them through that process. But if they’re fighting you on that every step of the way, there’s no substitute for, you have to sit down and think about how to guide that conversation with them one-on-one. What’s getting in the way? What’s worrying about you figuring out, is it a resource issue? Is it a concern about their own talent or skill in the next phase of that, what that future looks like?
Or are they worried about their job? Because, I think especially as we think about AI or more technology, people are be worried about their jobs or if there’s lots of layoffs, people are worried about their jobs and there’s things you can’t control. There’s things you can’t stop from happening. So I was thinking about what do they need to feel supported in that situation, in that moment, and what resources or people do they need. There’s no substitute for that one-on-one conversation as much as possible.
AD :
Thanks. I mean, organizational change, and obviously we look nationally, there’s a lot of change occurring right now, and it really does create a lot of instability for people and how people respond.
I like how you framed that. I don’t know if the next situation is any simpler than that ‘cause I always feel like organizational change is one of the most difficult things we as leaders have to deal with but giving feedback, I wrote it. I wrote the question is when simply trying to give feedback to a subordinate?
I don’t know if there’s ever been a time where feedback is a simple thing to do, but when you have a subordinate who doesn’t seem to be receptive or is pushing back, how do you approach those conversations?
Aligning Goals With Outcomes For More Effective Leadership Conversations [13:41]
CW :
I would ask the leader in that situation, what is the goal of that feedback? Because, again, that goes back to the goals because the goal of making somebody feel happy about getting constructive feedback, that’s not a good goal.
If you tell me that everything I’ve been doing is wrong or one thing I’ve been doing is wrong and I need to fix it, or I might get a warning. I don’t know, if anybody’s gonna be happy in this situation? Oh, thanks. I’m so happy that I got this feedback and I’m not doing well at my job.
So really it’s thinking through, do you need them to be happy about this? Or do you need them to just do something differently? I think that’s the first thing to think about. It’s not that you’re purposely trying to make them unhappy or you’re trying to yell at them. It’s really just thinking through how important is it that they’re happy about this situation and how realistic it is that they can be happy about this.
NM :
I love the outcome focus ’cause I think there’s been a lot of times throughout my military career or just throughout being, when I’m a leader in charge of someone where I want to say something, I want to give feedback, but then I think through okay, is this actually going to change anything? Or is this, what’s the actual outcome here?
And I think I learned this later in my career than earlier. Earlier, I just gave everyone feedback. And I think I came off as a jerk, but as you think through a little bit later in my career, I started okay, is this actually gonna change any behaviors? And I think having that mind shift change was really important in my growth.
CW :
I’ve had leaders tell me like that it changed their entire approach just by writing the goal on top of a piece of paper. When they go into these conversations with the staff, so when a staff tries to go off topic, they try to go on tangents or blame other people or talk about this issue or that issue because they wrote it down.
They’re like, yes, I get it. I get that’s important to you. Let’s talk about that after. I wanna make sure we cover this first. They feel much more confident because they just know, I need to tell you this feedback. I need to change your behavior in this way first, and then we could talk about those other things that are bothering you, and then we can have that coaching conversation or that supportive conversation around how do I support you in doing that? Maybe you do need more support and let’s help you think through how I can support you. But first is I need to you to know what needs to be different going forward.
AD :
And let me just see if I heard something there, Chris, where you talked to coaching conversation versus a supporting conversation. Are you distinguishing a difference there?
CW :
No, sorry, I’m not trying to distinguish. I just think that some people, I want them to think about them the same way. Like coaching is not necessarily coaching somebody through an error. It’s also like I’m supporting you through that error or supporting you through your performance, your work here.
AD :
My last scenario here, Chris, is whether it’s with a difficult person, whether it’s dealing with organizational change, whether it’s giving feedback or any of the other hundreds of difficult conversations a manager might have to have. If you are working in a remote or hybrid work environment and these conversations are occurring virtually, what becomes your advice then?
The Importance Of Frequent Check-ins & Building Rapport In Remote Settings [16:23]
CW :
I think it’s being really, especially if it’s the harder the conversation needs to be on video. Not in person, but on video you need to see those nonverbals. And I think it helps a lot if you can have more frequent check-ins or conversations with that person. That helps a lot cause if you just have a one and done that’s gonna leave a sour taste, you’re gonna see them every day.
You’re gonna see them in the hallway, you’re gonna see them going to bathroom, get a drink, get food, whatever. And or you might say, talk about the weather, right? Like people used to make fun of those kind of conversations, like the water cooler talk, like those nonsensical things. But really those things build a rapport over time.
They’re really like these small rapport building interactions and you lose that with virtual. And so you need to build that in specifically more so that you can have that relationship and that trusting so that when I talk to you and give you that feedback, it’s not just coming out of nowhere, but we’ve had enough interaction that I trust you or we have a good rapport that I know that you’re looking out for me. You’re not just randomly throwing bad news my way.
NM :
Chris, as a father of two, a business owner and a podcast host, you juggle many leadership roles. Have your experiences as a parent influenced how you approach coaching and leadership development and or vice versa?
Lessons In Patience & Understanding From Parenting Conversations [17:31]
CW :
I think parenting conversations, parenting, negotiation conversations are probably the hardest because you have an irrational person that’s refusing to negotiate with you. I think of, what is that movie? The Negotiator with Samuel Jackson and Kevin Spacey loved that movie. And Kevin Spacey’s character is supposed to be one of the best negotiators in the city.
And at the beginning of the movie, his character’s introduced by trying to negotiate with his teenage daughter. And he just loses that conversation. And I think that’s true like how can you really rationally negotiate with a four-year-old or an eight-year-old that’s refusing to put on a jacket or a three-year-old that’s going to, refusing to put on their shoes.
And so I think that’s given me much more. And like really all the work I’ve done helps me understand like, oh, I know why they’re doing this. It doesn’t make it easier, it doesn’t make me less, more calm, but I get it. They’re anxious about something or they have a stomach ache, or they’re socially anxious if they’re in public, right? I get it. I understand why they’re doing this.
It doesn’t make it easier, and I think it just makes it easier for me to recognize those things in everyday life. Also, now it’s easier for me to recognize, oh, you’re just nervous about this other thing, or I’m wondering, or It looks like you’re nervous about this other thing. Let’s explore that for a little bit. What’s going on here for you, but it just makes me better at just recognizing that there’s lots of things going on for somebody.
AD :
Yeah, I love that. Especially as you think about the, I don’t know how old your kids are, Chris, but mine range from 6 to 17. What I’m in the midst of learning, and this is a multi-year process, is what was working when they were five, six, and seven is not working at 15, 16, and 17.
And those conversations, the skills around those conversations are actually a little different, what I have to do and so it’s, I find it helpful because the world is filled with a lot of different people and what might work here might need to be adjusted there.
CW :
Yeah. My kids are eight and three and yeah, it’s always a new learning journey every day.
AD :
Chris, we’ve covered a lot of ground today and I know we’ve barely scratched the surface of everything you do. I’m curious about, you know, what haven’t we asked you today that you would like to share and leave with our audience as final piece of advice for mastering difficult conversations?
Emotional Mastery In Conversations: Balancing Feelings To Maintain Focus & Perception [19:40]
CW :
I would say the only thing that I didn’t talk about, I think you probably did ask this, I didn’t cover this for whatever reason, is learning to master ourselves emotionally. I think that’s a really key skill is learning how to master ourselves. And I don’t mean just like the negative emotions, right? Like anger, frustration, anxiety.
Yes, we should learn how to ground ourselves, have something we can do to keep ourselves calm in hard situations. I mean, even the positive feelings as well. I think we’ve all been in situations where we’re like, the conversation seems to be going better than we expected, and so we’re like happy and we’re so excited that we like miss signs that we should be paying more attention to, or we overlook little yellow flags that they might, the other person might not be truthful or, but we’re so happy because everything seems to be going smoother than we anticipated.
And then we miss things and it’s really about how do we maintain that balance and stay focused on what’s happening and not be overridden by our emotions in these kind of conversations ‘cause it’s really about how do we manage ourselves so that we can help manage the other person in the conversation.
AD :
I like that focus.
NM :
I’m an entrepreneur like yourself, Chris. And so whenever I’m starting to make a sale and I think it’s going in a good direction, I’m overly confident. I’m like starting to celebrate and I miss those things that I probably could have prevented the sale from going south. So I love that.
CW :
Yep.
AD :
I just think we don’t talk about those positive feelings that can have, we have to just be cautious, be aware of where, and you said, overconfidence bias is, can be a product of almost being, not thinking through, not being, not scrutinizing enough and not doing our due diligence. And so that’s, I appreciate that as a framework.
CW :
Yeah.
AD :
Chris, thanks so much. I know you’re busy. Thanks for taking the time to join us. We encourage folks to go listen to Chris’ podcast as well. There’s so many good things out there. Listen to it. Thanks for joining us, and thanks for all the work that you are doing in the field.
CW :
Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. It was a cool conversation.
NM :
Well, that is it for us on today’s podcast. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe to The NEGOTIATEx podcast if you haven’t already, and we’ll see you in the next episode.
